LegendsRacer - Legends & Bandolero Racing Forum
LEGENDS => General => Topic started by: LJ81 on November 11, 2010, 03:04:34 pm
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Just got off phone with the guys that went to the tire test. And it's looking like we dirt racers might get our wish.
http://legendsnation.com/news/2010/archive/11-11-USLC-Shows-Continuing-Support-for-Legends-on-Dirt-by-Testing-New-Tire.html
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Excellent news! ;D
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Yes....
I have recently done some testing too with an American Racer tire.
Also I will be contacting USLC about a nerf bar design for the Legends Cars to stop wheel hopping
----- Gimpster -----
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That sounds like some great news. I think that all would agree that the tire looks like a real dirt tire and just the fact that they are doing a test is awesome news.
Scott
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I posted last week on Yahoo Groups Legends Cars that I had done a test on my teat track with a BFG, Federal and an American Racer tire. I also shook down a wingless 360 sprint I was going to buy. This was Mike Patrick's reply...
Gimpster: Word from reliable source at US Legends yesterday confirmed they are soliciting sample tires from vendors so they can do testing and select a dirt oval tire for the Legends car which should be available for 2011. Momentum is growing to resolve the tire issue for the dirt racers - you have not been forgotten or your concerns dis-regarded. They have discussed nerfbar improvements as well but have not hit on a design which retains driver side door opening outward such that new dirt nerfbars could be retrofitted to all Legends chassis so the option to run either dirt or asphalt with the same chassis is still viable . Anyone with a good idea which can fulfill this essential criteria should contact US Legends.
Mike Patrick
Little Race Cars
As I mentioned I have a dirt nerf bar system that can be utilized by them (and us) in a 4 bar and a 6 bar config that will allow the doors to open on the Legneds Car. I have not contacted USLC yet because the design sheets are still packed in my trailer from moving my shop. Plus I have not been of the best health the past few days/
----- Gimpster -----
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I always thought that if you cut the right door up to the top of the drive shaft tunnel that would give you a way out if the nerf bars bent up. It would be cheap and wouldn't you require that much effort to do the mod. What do you all think.
Scott
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Gimpster,
Send your ideas to INEX.
The dirt tire tests are indeed great news! You dirt guys keep bugging INEX. With enough input from the drivers and crew members, perhaps something will get done on the dirt tire issue.
Steve
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I think we are all blowing up INEX`s phone on these tires, but I for one do not want them to jump to a new tire with out testing these tires for ware durability price to the racer and so on. Don`t forget once the tire chose is made we are stuck with it.
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I talked to Dave with Hurricane Racing yesterday and he said the tire wear was great from what he saw. Hardly no wear. And that's on a dry slick track. He said GE was squalling the tires getting in the corner. The only problem he said he did have was the RR had a slow leak with the bead lock.
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I talked to Dave with Hurricane Racing yesterday and he said the tire wear was great from what he saw. Hardly no wear. And that's on a dry slick track. He said GE was squalling the tires getting in the corner. The only problem he said he did have was the RR had a slow leak with the bead lock.
Not a surprise, most beadlocks leak with actual racing tires on them...sounds good so far
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I think it would be great to actually get a race tire to run on for once!
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I talked to Dave with Hurricane Racing yesterday and he said the tire wear was great from what he saw. Hardly no wear. And that's on a dry slick track. He said GE was squalling the tires getting in the corner. The only problem he said he did have was the RR had a slow leak with the bead lock.
Not a surprise, most beadlocks leak with actual racing tires on them...sounds good so far
Most likely they mounted the tire up without any bead sealer !! (or a tube)
I don't think anyone at USLC had any experience with a real racing tire on dirt ??
I suppose if they would hire me I would make their dirt division ROCK
----- Gimpster -----
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Rock would be too much like asphalt, I prefer the clay myself
;D
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Like I posted on Facebook, the video Legendsnation that was shot of the mod test that same day. I told them that track was as hard as a moon rock. Look at the vid..... tire pressures were WAY off for that surface. I can just imagine what they had in the Legend for pressure when it was taken out with the dirt tires on
----- Gimp -----
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I think we are all blowing up INEX`s phone on these tires, but I for one do not want them to jump to a new tire with out testing these tires for ware durability price to the racer and so on. Don`t forget once the tire chose is made we are stuck with it.
If they were to stick us with the tread design that they tested, the tires would last a while. If they go to a softer compound tire with a smaller block design they will wear faster. I had snow here on my track the past few days so I could not finish testing with other compound and tread designs. If asked, any info I have for them would be from my days of racing Mods and Mini Sprints with different compounds and thread design and what surface they work best on.....
oh yes, yo uthink I put up a stink about the Fed tire.... wait until they do something stupid with this dirt tire we get. I'm not posting anything on message boards..... they will hear from me on the phone, trust me
----- Gimpster -----
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Like I posted on Facebook, the video Legendsnation that was shot of the mod test that same day. I told them that track was as hard as a moon rock. Look at the vid..... tire pressures were WAY off for that surface. I can just imagine what they had in the Legend for pressure when it was taken out with the dirt tires on
----- Gimp -----
Saw the tires last night myself still on the car. Tire's had no fuzz on them at all. They did look great with about 60 laps on them. The tire was way to wide for the rims. So they will have to go with a narrower tire. Dave did say they were on 6/8 and 8/10 air.
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Dave did say they were on 6/8 and 8/10 air.
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I got a stupid question what does that mean?
one more question what size tire are they trying to run.
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Left and right side tire pressures.
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Like I posted on Facebook, the video Legendsnation that was shot of the mod test that same day. I told them that track was as hard as a moon rock. Look at the vid..... tire pressures were WAY off for that surface. I can just imagine what they had in the Legend for pressure when it was taken out with the dirt tires on
----- Gimp -----
Saw the tires last night myself still on the car. Tire's had no fuzz on them at all. They did look great with about 60 laps on them. The tire was way to wide for the rims. So they will have to go with a narrower tire. Dave did say they were on 6/8 and 8/10 air.
thanks.... that is what I thought. been around htem long enough to tell. Wait until you guys run a tire like this and see what you can do with it !!
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Friend told me that they (USLC) is working on getting the right compound and width tire but it is pretty much a done deal. We are getting a REAL dirt tire. He also told me several days ago the Mike Patrick at Little Race Cars has sold out to a Chris Lamond ( I think that was his name). That is all the word that I have but it sound like good news coming out of USLC to me but sorry to see Mike go.
Scott
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Yes... Mike announced it on Yahoo Groups Legendscars the other day
----- Gimp -----
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I cannot wait to get these dirt tires!! Its all I want for christmas!
I too am sorry to see Mike leave.
Joe
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Not to be the p1ss on everyones leg, but the class was designed to have a tire that can't handle the power, evening the field.
Now that it will hook up more, is anyone else concerned the sealed 1349's and cheater 1200'ss (not that either of those exist) will have even more of an advantage?
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Agree'd my friend.
I would love expand on my thoughts but it will just sound angry.
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Well, What I was told is that they are looking for a harder compound. They are not looking for a soft tire at all. If you drink the cool-aid they want a tire that last and is safe. I for one do think that they want the best for the series, if they didn't they wouldn't have any cars in the end. I do wish they would do a better job of doing tech. I know that where I run there hasn't been any tech for the last four years. NONE. That is why in my opinion that there was a bunch of cars that didn't show up for the Nationals that were from the area. I was told that this year we are going to have tech and that should do nothing but make the racing better. With all that said I'm going down to Concord this weekend and if I hear anything about tires I will let you all know. You bet I will be asking questions about tires. Going to get a new chassis and can't wait to get it. Just a little early Christmas for me.
Scott
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Tech is a great thing when correctly aplied. I am all for it but what has happened to me in the past (different class) is they would just tech stupid things and miss the real big things. This left myself and some of my friends very angry especially when they allowed incredibly light cars into the street stock mix. All this political stuff along with the obvious family demands left me sitting in the stands. I will tell you though, getting a rubber glove inspection every week when I was in the top 5 left me a little happier to quit for the family.
As I came back, into the Legend class I felt the field was much more leveled and the tech although still there was better (at our track) as well as more straight forward. I found that there were more feature winners all season long and I felt like I may have a chance to be both legal and win.
This class is a neat class and I hope I can run in it for a long time. I just hope you are correct and that they get a race tire equivelent to the BFGs. That would be cool and plus race tires look great under any car.
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I know that where I run there hasn't been any tech for the last four years. NONE. That is why in my opinion that there was a bunch of cars that didn't show up for the Nationals that were from the area.
Let me start off by saying I am a big fan of tech and hope in the future we have tech at least so often that everyone must assume it will happen. I know you might not have been referring to our group, but if so, I think you are making a pretty big exaggeration. I've only run with Central PA Legends for 2 and a half years, but for quite a while they were teching the top 3 after the race and a few times they did tech on us all, but only for one item each time I think. By no means do I think this is adequate, but there was a weak attempt.
About the lack of participation at the Nationals. I'm not sure how a lack of tech in our series would affect our car count at the Nationals. Please explain. For me it was the distance, and the fact that last year at ELS wasn't a great enough experience for me to spend that much to go to Springfield. Not complaining, I'm sure in past years folks from that area didn't come east for the same reasons.
Rick
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Rick,
I was referring to PA. I have been running up there for four or five years but only 4-5 times a year. I have never had any tech and never seen any real tech. I have seen them run cars over the scales with driver but I don't really think that is tech. Rick this is not a attack on central PA because I have run several places with no real tech. I have seen with my own eyes guys doing illegal things in the pits but I do think sometimes it is done with out knowledge of the rule book. I was told this year by one guy that he soaks his tires and he truly didn't think that it was illegal as long as he keeps the duration # below the rule book. I did run a national qualifier before the nationals in PA and there was zero tech. As far as low car count at the nationals, I was referring to the number of cars from PA that didn't show at the nationals that was run in PA. Maybe it was a scheduling conflict with some of them???? It was the first year that they implemented 165lbs of compression for open motors so maybe that was the factor but that rule was implemented all year. You are right though, tech doesn't have to be a complete tear down each week but if you don't what is coming it sure makes you want to keep your car right. Hope to run with you guys more this year but this job thing keeps getting in the way of my racing.. See you in Jan. at the meeting though.
Scott
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I have to agree with the stupid tire rule. I believe (without looking) it says you can't do anything to the tire, but then it says the hardness has to be over 58. That doesn't make sense since the tires (as I've gotten them) have all been over 70. It's almost like they are saying "don't do this, but if you do, don't go past this softness". I will be honest, I tried it, and it didn't seem to help me. 2 months after I stopped, I won my first feature at Path Valley, and the softest tire on the car was a 70. To revisit the Nationals thing- I was nervous about going to the Nationals at ELS because I had never had a real good tech and for all I knew, I was overlooking something obvious that they would catch. In fact, I had to add that one bar to the frame that had been required for years. But that was a really old frame I used that year. Also, I really laugh every time they run us over the scales. With as big as I am and the fact that the car is well over it's minimum, I am way over my minimum. In fact, I've never heard of anyone being light. With stock cars, we had guys light all the time.
I do really hope this year we not only have a solid tech program, but also, some solid leadership from our group at the track. I think we will, and I think it will be a great year, but we will know for sure once it gets going. In any case, I can't wait.
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"Also, I really laugh every time they run us over the scales. With as big as I am and the fact that the car is well over it's minimum, I am way over my minimum. In fact, I've never heard of anyone being light. With stock cars, we had guys light all the time."
I was "light" at Nationals after my heat race. Then I told them they were crazy and they had me go over the scales again.
I dont care what you do, 210lb driver + 44 pounds of lead will make ANY Legend car over weight. :D
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I didn't find out anything last weekend about tires for dirt. Anyone else heard anything? It would be nice if we got something soon.
Scott
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I did hear from a "somewhat" reliable source that the decision is made to run American Racer. Compound and size no word yet. I hope they let us know soon. We're suppose to start in the middle of February here.
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I heard the same and sent Darrel a email to try and help push him along. It would be nice to get a couple of sets so we could do some set-up stuff and some testing once the snow goes away.
Scott
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This is what I got back from Darrel yesterday. I asked if we had a tire and when it would be available.
Hi Scott,
I would not expect any dirt tires till late March.
Darrel
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so lets hope that the hold up is so they can get us a good price. ;)
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so if they go with these new tires ? are the BFGs out >?
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This is ridiculous. We, like Lee, start in February. I'm not going to buy a set of uncut federals just to run just one race on because we're waiting on the sanctioning body to make a decision that has been looming for over a year. Yet they just decide to test the tires in November?
^I dunno why I said this, I know most guys share the same opinion and I doubt anyone at USLC cares enough to get on here and see what the racers think. Guess it never hurts in case someone sees it.
Anyway, that said I'm glad a good tire is coming along.
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can't you still run the bfg?
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I sent Darrel that exact question and hope to get a response soon.
Scott
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I know everyone is frustrated with the whole tire issue, especially you dirt guys. I think it's time to bombard INEX with emails, phone calls and/or letters for a decision on the dirt tire issue. At least force them to make a decision on the BFGs and let the guys with Federals know what will be up with those tires. The issue is with INEX and not USLC at this point. Take the arguement to the people that make the rules and let them know your thoughts and concerns.
Steve
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Darrel has said repeatedly that you will be able to use the BFG tires this year. Our local track said they will go unsanctioned if they forced racers to buy new tires and not allow the BFGs. This could get interesting.
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This is going to suck, i don't have a set of BFG. And i'm not buying any with the thought of a new tire coming out.
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Darrel wrote me back about the tires, This is what he said, so Jeff is correct. I do think once the new tires are out you will have to buy some to be competitive.
Yes BFG's will be OK, in fact I plan on letting BFG's run all year if needed.
Darrel
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I got the same basic response from Darrel. I don't have a problem at all buying 4 tires, the thing I have a problem with is that even though this has been known for a year, now that the new season is here, INEX is surprised that we need a tire.
Justin
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Well im going to be racing in feb, and i ran the federals are last race in Nov after i finally got the right rear to hold air on a beadlock. I have been told they are going to switch tires to the American Racer but there are trying to figure out thr hardness of the tire. to be honest im glad they are actually trying to get us are own tire, but im also pissed because they told us in Missouri before nationals that the fed tires are what we are running in 2011. So about 12 or 13 of us bought a whole set and now they are planning on switching, so basically i spent $400 bucks for tires to run les then 5 races on them. INEX needs to run there operation alittle bit better and figure out what the hell there doing, and stop worrying about there little midget sprint car they made for dirt. And if anybody wants to know how i got the beadlock to seal just let me know. I just unloaded it out of the trailer Sunday and it only dropped a pound and half since i raced it the weekend of Thanksgiving, and we have had some cold nights here.
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Run their operation a little better.... ahmen !
After all these topics of tires for dirt we have been grinding over for years and years, because we were unhappy with the BFG on dirt... they take out another chassis to test, decide to put on some dirt tires on a Legend to try on a dryslick red clay track. Hmmm.. hardly any wear so a bell goes off in their noggin to put legends on a dirt tire.... hmmmmm.
Back up here a second Pedro !! Has anyone at USLC ever raced a dirt tire on a light chassis ?? For a full season ?? Highly unlikely.. none the less on brown dirt, black dirt, river clay, grey clay, or red clay with the tracks prepped ?? Then all surfaces dry ?? Not just one test but a season full of tests on all surfaces and conditions ? No !! They are testing a dirt tire on a dryslick red clay and expect all of us to be happy with their decision.... NOT. We will end up with the hardest compound out there and the wrong thread design.. the way they are shuffeling through this tire deal. Best input they may have is if they take the time to thoroughly discuss these topics with the tire company and racers who HAVE raced them in light chassis on dirt.
Not bragging but I prolly have more experience with dirt tires racing my Mini Sprint than they will gather up this winter testing.... If they are going to instate a dirt tire they need to leave the compound and thread rule open for a few years and let the racers test the tires. Besides.... they would prolly increase profit selling everyone tires in those few seasons and make us all happy. Instead we will get a dirt tire that is hard as a moonrock because of the dryslick testing they are doing of tires
Look at the big picture here. They do all this testing for tires (or should)... while testing the new "dirt chassis". The new dirt chassis flops like the thunder roadster... they stop support of Legends on dirt and make you change over to the new dirt chassis ?? Stick a fork in Legends on dirt... they're done. Who do they have of any dirt experience doing any of this testing ??? Anyone with a reputable dirt past in these things to give us the right stuff ?? We're talking testing being done in asphalt country thinking their dirt track is the same as all the others across the country for tire wear ??
I've said enough for now
~ Gimpster ~
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As I stated before; I know everyone is frustrated with the whole tire issue. Discussion on tires and rules have been kicked around on forums for a long time. Lets all try to take these thoughts and arguements to the powers that make the rules. Unfortunately, I don't think they read our little forum. So, the thoughts and comments need to go to the "suits and ties" at INEX.
Steve
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I do agree with Gimp on most of what he is lashing out at. They did know for a long time that the BFG's are gone and for a couple of years now they have been sending tires (federals) around the country and asking for input. The problem is they thought that everyone would like them and that would be that. Everyone that I talked to that did this teat hated them and thought that they were dangerous. Sooooo, they have known for sometime that a tire is needed but as Gimp stated they do a test of this new thing (modified) and through in a tire test for Legends and the tire works. Soooo now they need a tire that fits the rim (modified front tire was to wide) and while there at it they look a couple of different compounds. Now they settle on a compound and size and ask the manufacture to make the tire with there stamp on it and the manufacture says OK and they will be ready in five months. Now USLC is in a pickle because they told us that we will not be running BFG's next year and Federals don't work. So what do you do? You let everyone run BFG's until the new tire is ready and say you can run all year but know that if someone doesn't buy the new tire they will be a back marker. This is just my opinion of how things went down and I would bet my pay check that I'm to far off. Steve is correct that we need to make Darrel's New Year a little brighter with a lot of phone calls and emails. If have sent a few this week and plan on a phone call today. Have a Happy New Year everyone.
Scott #77
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I agree with what some of you guys are saying. But how soft are you guys thinking you want the tires? Yes i would like them alittle bit softer then the BFG's, but not to much. i dont want them like a sprint car tire, hell im a big guy and thats my even playing ground with the lighter guys is the harder tire. Unless they want to take away the sealed motors and let you do whatever you want to them. Then ok lets go soft, but then again does everyone really want to buy a bunch of tires every year because they are using them up every 2 races. I DONT, i will go back to a modified or something if thats the case . i can handle every 8 to 10 races buy 1 tire for the right rear, you want to make it were you have to buy some tires each year. Heck i know guys who are still racing with 4 and 5 year old tires and they wonder why there not going anywhere. This was one of the main reasons why i started racing a legend was that you didnt have to spend a fortune in tires, even though i didnt like the BFG's compound when i first started. i wouldnt mind seeing the new tires in the middle 50's range, anything under 55 is to soft for a legend with the motors we run! But has everyone listened to the new dirt car run? the thing sounds like its bogging down like crazy coming out of the corners because its biting so hard.
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The softer the tire, the bigger advantage for the 1250.
The better the 1250 does, the more engines they sell, thus killing the 1200.
Take the time to think about it.
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Oh i understand completly there. they want everyone to have a sealed motor. but the softer tire the bigger guy you are, the more that motor is going to bogg down. i guess if they did that you would just have to try different gears then you normally run at certain tracks. i just think if they go too soft its not going to be a good move. but then again most of the things 600 does isnt the brightest move. 600 is always trying to pad there pockets someway or another.
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I agree on not going too soft on the tires. When I had the modified, I was buying a new tire every race and still had no shot at the people who could afford a new set of soft compound tires each week. I like being able to de-glaze 2 year old tires with a belt sander and have something that can compete. The hard tire is what keeps cheated up motors from having a big advantage and gives us bigger drivers a chance against an 80 pound kid. I am also concerned about the drivetrain if the tires are too soft. Not sure how everything from the rear end to the crankshaft will handle a lot of extra grip. A little softer would be OK, but I would still like to keep a hard compound tire. Gimpster is right about testing needed on different tracks with different types of dirt before a final tire is chosen.
I took a look at the website for American Racer tires and the only one that seems to be the right rim size and tread pattern that matches the pictures we have seen is the dirt midget tire.
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well American racer could just go off the design they have for the modified tire. just make them alittle harder then what they have for the mods. 600 could get it done, but who knows if they will. we are always going to have issues with 600 until they get someone in there company that knows something about dirt racing and the things that could help are series out. Hell if we could just get a good dirt tire and they stay with it,( hell get us a slick and let us groove them are selfs then). a quick change rearend and maybe a dual master cylinder, these cars would be a blast and you could try alot more different gear sets at the track. I hate changing the gears.
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First; USLC is not responsible for making the rules. That lies with INEX. I know that some of us do not seperate the two. But that is where all these thoughts need to go... INEX.
The dwarf car guys have used the American Racer tire with good success. I don't know what compound. I can do some asking around. Some of the groups are also trying to come up with a good workable tire for their series. I'll see what some of the proposals are.
Steve
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USLC and INEX are the same thing Steve, kind of Like GM owns Chevrolet
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More like Bonnie and Clyde........... ;)
Scott
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;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D ;D
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Scott,
Kind of what I was thinking. lol!
Steve
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Hahaha... they's gangsta !
Have a happy new year everyone.....
~ Gimpster ~
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These are a few of the tire rules I found listed while doing a quick search of what the dwarf car folks are doing.
CDCRA - Hoosier 8” wide maximum tread width, with 50 durometer minimum softness and/or Hoosier “Mediums” or “RC-3”. No softening compounds of any kind will be allowed.
LSDCC - Street-type tires only. Must have treadwear number of 180 or higher with a tread patch width of 8" maximum, meaning a passenger car tire normally used on public streets and highways. Tire must also have (P) rated allowance. Tire must be of compound used for public highway driving. Tread may be grooved in any manner. Tire must not be altered in size. Tires may not be shaved or cambered. Tire rubber compound must not be altered to make softer. Tires must not show a durometer reading to be softer than 55 at any time. Tech Inspector durometer will be considered the official durometer to determine softness of compound. No special racing treads caps, or compounds. No McCreary, Hoosier, Hurst, Mickey Thompson or any other street tire with racing compound. No recaps. 205-60-13 is the widest tire allowed.
WSDCA - Hoosier Tires shall be the spec tire. Hoosier Mediums or RC3's. No softening compounds will be allowed.
OKDCR - Hoosier Racing Tires soft, medium or hard. Goodyear G45 or G50. 40-durometer minimum before race for dirt. Grooving or siping of tread surface is permitted.
Steve
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Tires are officially American Racers. I know nothing else other than the brand.
Darrell Krentz also said that you can run the BFG's or Federals in 2011 on dirt.
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You know... if they have settled on the American Racer tire that the compound will be an MD-56 or MD-57.... If they stick us with the HD-65 then ya might as well not throw those old BFG's away.... The last 2 numbers in the tire compound is the durometer reading.
I'm hoping they drop the allowed compound down to around an SD-35 to an SD-40
~ Gimp ~
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Gimp, I would love to have 65 on the durometer. I know that my 5 year old BFG's are not that good. I really don't want a soft tire. I want something that will last for a couple of seasons at least.
Scott
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As long as they last a full season i'll be happy. If they end up like the BFG's ill buy 4 this year and 2 new ones next year..
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I agree on the harder tires.
If I want to buy tires every couple weeks, I'd be racing on asphalt for more money.
The tire evens the playing field.
I'll be on my BFG's
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couldnt agree with you more there. the softer the tire the worse it will be. if they go with a 35 or a 40, my stuff is forsale. im not going to buy tires every 2 races. not worth it at all. 55 is the lowest they need to be.
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i just heard from 600 that the compound that they have right now for the american racer tire is a 57.
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I just wish they would get them out so we could run them at the first of the year. It looks just like how they did the asphalt tire swap. FUBAR
Scott
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2 seasons on a set of 40 durometer American Racers on 3 corners of my sprint. Couldn't tell you how many on the right rears because I had 3 different tires to put on for various tracks and conditions. Never wore out any of them out... one durometered at 25. Thing is... these cars are light and not hard on tire wear.
Amy mention of which tread pattern ??
~ G ~
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I have heard that the pattern is just like the ones they had on the new 600 dirt car. you might not of wore out your tires as much. but im sorry you go to soft on these cars every little guy and kid that climbs in to one is going to be fly and us bigger guys will be seeing there rear bumper alot more then you would if the tires are a harder compound. it evens the field out with alittle bit of a harder tire. just voicing my opinion. If they go with the 57, i think it will be good!
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Yep, soft tires are not what we need. Give us a hard tire and let the drivers drive.
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I hope they make an official announcement soon.
Still time for us to move on and set up in another division for next season if the dice don't turn up our way. The wife and I are nothing special in Legends Cars or to USLC.
First they take away my compression on a couple 1200's I stuck a lot of time into and had to de-tune them. I suggested then that they need to make an 'open' division for Legends catering to those of us who have the resources and skills to run in an 'Outlaw' division for Legends on dirt. I believe it was during a topic on Yahoo Groups, Legends Cars, back in around 2003 or 2004. During this topic, fore mentioned, is where I brought up the tire situation for dirt. Everyone agreed on different compounds being available (softer) to use if they were to instate a racing tire for the dirt side of Legends. Reason was safety with the ability of retaining more car control with better bite.
Well... here we are... Getting a real racing dirt tire for our cars... and just like I suspected... racers are going against what was earlier agreed on and want a HARDER compound !! ??? WTF is the reason for having a racing tire on a Legend Car if it is harder than the BFG we run now ?? So your car looks cool to the neighbors when it is setting in the driveway as you wash it and they see it has real race tires on it ?? Oh Boy..
Soon as they make the announcement of a harder compound... one sec......
Wanda (the wife) just read my post and found out about the tire compound deal. She pulled the plug on me racing Legends terming the topic bull*** again with Legends.
I'm out.. won't see us around message boards anymore for Legends
Thanks fellers
~ Gimpster ~
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I understand both stance on this but I just don't want to buy tires every couple of races to keep up with the Jones's (sorry for any Jones's on here). If they want to put some car control in these how do you all feel about a steering quickener? I have never run one but it seems that most people you see spin get behind on their steering and around they go. I personally like the fact that these cars are a handful to drive because it separates the drivers from one another. I agree with Jim that if I have to replace tires all the time, I might as well go back to asphalt. Heck the track is closer but it is more fun on dirt and more input from the driver (sorry asphalt guys, but it the truth). I think that we could live a 57 and that would be good middle ground. Gimp that other list is mostly (and I said mostly)made up of asphalt guys who freak out if they got some dirt on there trailer. I know that we all bash USLC and sometimes deservingly but in the end it is some of the best racing out there for your dollar. I have seen spin off series try and make it and they usually bite the dirt (no pun intended). Have a good weekend and get your cars ready because race season is coming soon.
Scott
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Wow Gimpster, sounds like legends cars arent for you, a sprint car sounds better suited for what you want to do.
Just to be clear I dont want a harder tire than the BFG, just not something much softer. I think any lower than 50 and these cars will start sticking to good and the racing will suffer. The tread pattern is what was hurting performance on the BFG so judging from what I saw of the new tire it looks like it will be a good unit.
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Hi Gimpster,
I understand what you are saying about more car control making it safer, but I am not sure at what point the balance tips towards becoming more dangerous because of the increased speeds on the bigger tracks. With the fact that I only race a few times a year, a sticky tire would help me get up to speed faster but I like the cars being hard to drive. Even with the BFG's I remember seeing something about the legends cars running lap times close to the modifieds at Springfield, and when I tested my car on dirt the first time, even with mistakes I was running times with the sportsman cars here locally. A legends car with a pull bar for the third link or a floating 4 link and soft tires would be fun to drive and we would have more control, but then it will tilt in favor of smaller drivers with the more horsepower, tire wear becomes an issue, stress on the drive train might go beyond what they can take, etc. Also a significantly softer tire would force people on BFG's to either sit out, run in back, or buy all new tires to compete. It's all just a big balancing act. I like the idea of a tire that is a little softer than now but will not force out people who want to stay on the BFG's they have already. Maybe the people on here, including me, are wrong about staying with a hard tire. You have been doing this longer than I have. Not trying to be disrespectful. Just giving my opinion.
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does anybody know if the american racer tire is going to be the same size of the bfg's? I was wondering if there was any word on what the size and or circumfirance of the tire will be?
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Steve ~
I'll kinda apologize here 'stead of in private....
She normally doesn't read these message boards and was under the understanding we were finally getting a tire. Just so happens she walked over and read the wrong post and went on... See.. the tire deal has been an issue in every class we ran since the '80's. Sprint cars, Imca or Wissota mods and streets, Mini Sprints and now Legends. She has been by my side for the whole ordeal. Heck, I've seen guys run a set of BFG's for 3 or 4 seasons (origional durometer reading of 58). Way to hard !! As in other classes mentioned they finally came around with rules applying to tire compounds that work. USLC has always treated the dirt side as a step child. When I first ran a Legend in 2001, I identified the issue with good racing being taken away from the division by too hard of a tire. Exactly what every other sanctioning body has faced and found true in the long run after lotsa heated debate. I discussed the tire deal with Darrell at the dirt nationals in 2003 and he agreed. When nothing was done year after year after year about it, we finally moved on. A softer tire will not make the cars that much faster as they do making the racing and competition more safely agressive. It will cut down on running board climbing and wheel hopping as a harder tire looses grip under inconsistant dirt racing surfaces. Ever run a track where one was dried out under the groove on one end of the track from direction of wind that day..etc ?? You are sure of a pass in the next corner and whem you dive low in that corner the tires are too hard to bite in a line one Legends width lower than the front car was running (just one example of many). An accident happens that could have been prevented.. yada yada. When did this discussion with D-man occor ? 2003 ? How many years later did they finally actually slip a set of real dirt shoes on a Legend ? I call BS on all the smoke that has been blown up our rears since '03 even. Us dirt fellers... they don't give a ratts butt about other than the parts sales supports their precious asphalt division these cars were designed for.
Ever run a 57 compound racing tire ??? This class is not for beginners on dirt no more . Everyone had better get a generator, grinder and buffing wheel because this is racing rubber and you will have to scuff the threads. You will prolly see durometer readings in the 70's after they been heated up in a dry slick feature and cooled down. Now if the tire compound was at least 45 to begin with then you will be right at the sweet spot that everyone likes the BFG on dirt at... Hence a softer compound. Just because the thread is soft compound does not mean it will stay soft and wear out... IT IMPROVES RACING QUALITY IN THE END !! Not only from a drivers perspective but it improves the viewers perspective of the division with tighter and better racing. Anyway Steve... the above was a lot of heated discussion that went on during the middle of my last post on here and why I said what I did.... The water has cooled some on Legends topic here but not all the way as it is another repeat of what we have went through time and time again on other divisions.... where the topic at hanad and our view are correct as per past experience. USLC is too handicapped to listen to common sence and that experience. If they put Legends on a 57 durometer tire... everyone will be buying tires in another season once they realize they chose the wrong compound..... That is why I was mad last night my friend... they will not listen to experience and trying to help in the tire battle (the right tire the first time around)
~ Gimpster ~
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Hi Gimpster,
I understand what you are saying about more car control making it safer, but I am not sure at what point the balance tips towards becoming more dangerous because of the increased speeds on the bigger tracks. With the fact that I only race a few times a year, a sticky tire would help me get up to speed faster but I like the cars being hard to drive. Even with the BFG's I remember seeing something about the legends cars running lap times close to the modifieds at Springfield, and when I tested my car on dirt the first time, even with mistakes I was running times with the sportsman cars here locally. A legends car with a pull bar for the third link or a floating 4 link and soft tires would be fun to drive and we would have more control, but then it will tilt in favor of smaller drivers with the more horsepower, tire wear becomes an issue, stress on the drive train might go beyond what they can take, etc. Also a significantly softer tire would force people on BFG's to either sit out, run in back, or buy all new tires to compete. It's all just a big balancing act. I like the idea of a tire that is a little softer than now but will not force out people who want to stay on the BFG's they have already. Maybe the people on here, including me, are wrong about staying with a hard tire. You have been doing this longer than I have. Not trying to be disrespectful. Just giving my opinion.
Thanks.... and I am not trying to be selfish for a soft compound.... Just want the right tire the first time, based on experience. Suppose everyone could research the difference in tire temps (for example) on a 410 sprint to a mini sprint.... I'll save you the time... A Legend will not wear out a softer tire as fast as many racers think and as I sound like a broken record over... they will improve the quality of racing for the division, making it a more attractive division to compete in
Later my friend
~ Gimpster ~
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Tires are ALWAYS going to be a big debate. Racers want something that will be affordable, last awhile (as tires aren't cheap) and work (somewhat) on the desired racing surface. The rule makers don't always take that into account. They are more worried about gaining contracts for sponser money, how "they" will make money on the deal, etc... Got to remember that these "bean counters" are not the ones out there doing the racing (in general). That is why I push giving the "rule makers" your oppinion. They are not going to learn anything about "average joe racer" on LN (no offense Jason) or any other "racing news" site. They need to get down in the pits and talk to the drivers, mechanics and owners. Whatever rules are made are always going to make some angry. Coming to some kind of compromise will ultimately be the best solution.
Steve
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Gimpster. i know the rule book says nothing under a 58, that was for the BFG's. has anyone ever received a tire from 600 that was even in the low 60's. because every tire i ever got brand new from them were always upper 60's or about 70. because if everyone else was running on a 58 or a 60. im mad then. haha! i just have one question though about the soft tire you want like your sprint car has. How come when you run a 50 lap latemodel race and it gets alittle rubbered up, and you put a brand new tire on for the feature. Why is it pretty much completly shot after that race? and i cant remember what the compound is on the tires we run around here on are latemodel. but i know there not as soft as a sprint car tire. so you think after the tracks rubber up, because legends usually run close to the end, atleast were i race. that a soft tire in the 40's is going to last most of the year. I dont see how that is possible, because its going to bite more when there is rubber on the track, now if its tacky allnight. ok yeah maybe it will last awhile. But tell me how it will last more then 2 or 3 nights when the tracks are rubbered up. atleast were i race most of the time they are rubbered down!
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hahaha a late model with 5 times the horse power and 3 times the weight. 50 laps for the pay which they run for... they have a softer tire on that ride than you assume. I won't go into the math any farther for now. You ever run a red clay track ?? A red clay track that is hard as a moon rock ?? They tested the Legend on a 57, mega laps, and seen no wear.... Pretty much strums it up right there. You ever set up a late model ? Way different than a Legend..A softer tire can be ruled in (here I go again) improving safer racing, better racing and still provide satisfactory tire wear making everyone happy.
That high of a durometer reading on a new BFG ?? Hate to tell you but you got left overs.. ever check the casing date and run number ? Check where and how the tires were stored and were they wrapped yet when you bought them ? The last set of fresh BFG's I bought (not naming the dealer) durometered at 55 after removing the wrapping. We never were checked for durometer readings of our tires here and I don't chemically treat my tires.. I have another proceedure from back in the days of flat tracking bikes I used to get mine to 48 on the durometer. With those softened BFG's, I raced wednesday, friday, saturday and sunday night every week all summer with those tires for 2 seasons. Sold the car and they ran it with those tires for 2 more seasons with the same skins. A racing tire compound will be different but a 45 durometer reading tire would easily make 2 seasons on a Legend on the same schedule we ran in the day of that chassis.
They are sticking you guys with a tire that is too hard for these cars at 57....
~ Gimpster ~
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Gimpster. i know the rule book says nothing under a 58, that was for the BFG's. has anyone ever received a tire from 600 that was even in the low 60's. because every tire i ever got brand new from them were always upper 60's or about 70. because if everyone else was running on a 58 or a 60. im mad then. haha! i just have one question though about the soft tire you want like your sprint car has. How come when you run a 50 lap latemodel race and it gets alittle rubbered up, and you put a brand new tire on for the feature. Why is it pretty much completly shot after that race? and i cant remember what the compound is on the tires we run around here on are latemodel. but i know there not as soft as a sprint car tire. so you think after the tracks rubber up, because legends usually run close to the end, atleast were i race. that a soft tire in the 40's is going to last most of the year. I dont see how that is possible, because its going to bite more when there is rubber on the track, now if its tacky allnight. ok yeah maybe it will last awhile. But tell me how it will last more then 2 or 3 nights when the tracks are rubbered up. atleast were i race most of the time they are rubbered down!
You must have been getting some old crap tires. I checked all my tires last night. The highest I have is a 65, the lowest I have is a 56 dated from 2008 when they had that soft batch they sent out
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haha. i thought you might say something about the red clay. only type of red clay thats on the ground from where im at has nothing but big bolder rocks in them, we do not run on red clay. and yes i know a latemodel has alot more horsepower and is totally different.My dad and uncle have raced them off and on since the early 80"s and still do to this day,well atleast my uncle still does, dad got sick of spending all that money. of course the cars have changed alot during those times, but i was just giving a example the same way you give with the sprintcar you compare to, they are both to totally different cars. My only point and reasoning for not wanting to go to soft is im a 6'2" 255 pound guy, and lets say we went with a 40 tire and im racing against a kid or a grown man thats 140 pounds, you dont think he is going to have a big advantage? i sure do.If we could do whatever to are motor and not run under there rules. then that would be different, tell me what you think. And the BFG's yeah i see the date on the side. but we have never had a tire come to us in the low 60's. wish we could of got some. we probably got the batch that was made first for that year and put in the back and we got them shipped out to us last.
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i guess we were. the best one we ever had was like a 64 or a 65 at one time. i hate grinding tires, and i was doing it every week. maybe thats why im excited about them talking about going to a 57. never had a soft tire like to run on with a legend. maybe it has something to do with the humidity in missouri, its blazing in the summer here, you cant walk to the mailbox without sweating.
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haha. i thought you might say something about the red clay. only type of red clay thats on the ground from where im at has nothing but big bolder rocks in them, we do not run on red clay. and yes i know a latemodel has alot more horsepower and is totally different.My dad and uncle have raced them off and on since the early 80"s and still do to this day,well atleast my uncle still does, dad got sick of spending all that money. of course the cars have changed alot during those times, but i was just giving a example the same way you give with the sprintcar you compare to, they are both to totally different cars. My only point and reasoning for not wanting to go to soft is im a 6'2" 255 pound guy, and lets say we went with a 40 tire and im racing against a kid or a grown man thats 140 pounds, you dont think he is going to have a big advantage? i sure do.If we could do whatever to are motor and not run under there rules. then that would be different, tell me what you think. And the BFG's yeah i see the date on the side. but we have never had a tire come to us in the low 60's. wish we could of got some. we probably got the batch that was made first for that year and put in the back and we got them shipped out to us last.
When I set up a Legend for a bigger feller I use weight distribution as an advantage with the driver in the car. It is an advantage a light driver does not have if they mount lead in the car. A bigger driver in these small cars has a higher roll center. This can help the chassis unload deeper into the corner and still have more bite recovering after the chassis does unload. A small driver can only mount weight so high in a Legend and placed farther back changing foreward bite characteristics that a larger driver retains. In general I look at your weight as an advantage in this fashion.
My point is being entirely overlooked but you came close when you said you purchased harder BFG tires... If they make a softer tire rule you can run a harder compound tire. This opens doors in at the track race day tuning. Although the tire rule is low on the durometer you would be able to run harder compounds, keep a variety of them on your trailer for those changing track conditions during the event. USLC making the tire rule at 57 leaves us hanging and is most likely what they are aiming at for the goal since the company is asphalt minded in the first place
If they are looking to change the tire rule I want a rule that will suit everyone and improve the quality of racing for Legends on dirt
And if the wife finds out I am still hanging on message boards she will prolly shut down our internet... hehehe
~ Gimpster ~
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I tell ya what maybe we all should just buy tires from hoosier for are local series. and everyone boycott the nationals and see what they think. Maybe they would listen. haha> doubt it. but it would be funny to do that. i wish they would go with different compounds and let you choose. because there is different dirt and clay everywhere, that way you could run a softer or harder compound at a different track or different track conditions, that would be the best way. thats what they do in the lucas oil dirt latemodel series. there is no tire rule unless they make one for a certain event. But you know that will never fly with 600. Gimpster good talking to ya!
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You guys are totally missing the big picture here, this sport gets way out of hand when you start opening up the rules. OK fine you want softer tires, lets look at this as a what if kind of thing. lets say they give us a tire thats in the 40 range, 600 says that it will last all season, great. so we all go out and buy a set, all is well till that first guy goes out and buys a new set 4 weeks in and puts 1/2 second a lap faster then everyone. there it starts, if you don't buy new ones every mouth, you might as well keep it at home. This is what is happened to WKA right now, if you don't come with at lest a thousand bucks worth of new skins why even unload. I for one was drawn to the legends because of the spec rules. Lets not let this get out of hand too.
My 2 cents
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I understand were your coming from about the cost of buying tires. but not everyone is going to be happy with whatever they choose. everyone races on different surfaces. and everyone wants something different. It really doesnt matter what we all say or want, its up to 600 and what they want to do. Dont get worried and think there going to go crazy with tires were you have to spend a bunch of money buying them all the time. I think everyone knows or has a good idea what there going to go with on the tire. and its proly going to be in the mid 50"s range. i hope they let us mis match the BFG's the Feds and the AR. because i bought a set of feds last year and have less then 5 races on them. so i want to use them some. because i would put the american racer on the right side and the feds on the left, but i doubt they will allow that to happen.
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Your right, not everyone will be happy with the tires, but it is what it is.I would like a one year old set to be just as good as a new set. Or at lest real close.
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OK...This is my very first post. Jim #17 will be happy now.
I've been following this subject quite close and am not necessarily a happy camper either. The dirt car I drive runs on a shoe string budget and this tire deal could go either way. I hope like most others that we either the BFG's will be competitive or at least we only have to purchase one set of the American Racers to get thru an entire season. If like the other gentleman says you have to buy more than 4 tires per year for changing track conditions or excessive tire wear, then I'm afraid the Legends dirt car division as we know it today will start loosing cars one by one and die a slow death. I am hoping that this never happens. I have a background of 22 years of Figure-8 racing prior to joining the Legends group 2 years ago and sure have had a lot of fun up to this point and I hope it doesn't change. Only time will tell us all I guess.
Just my two cents! ;D
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You will get a full season @ 3 to 4 nights a week of racing from a 50 durometer reading tire on these cars. Close on the 45 depending on the dirt consistency.
Anyone remember (I forget too) when eather Wissota or IMCA changed the tire rule to a hard compound in the Dirt Modified division ? Only took one year for them to loose all their drivers and tracks supporting them to the other division....
Reflection of what is at hand here. When I was helping our dealer, letting drivers from other divisions drive legends cars they complained about the tires, saying they would never buy one if they had to run that tire.... boom... right there USLC lost a sale. In reality probably 3 sales as that driver's pitman would buy one as well as his brother.
Honestly I wouldn't mind if they decided to lower the compound rule for a season or 2 just to see which direction Legends would go toward. They might even learn something out of the deal concerning what affect a racing tire would have on their precious asphalt series, using the dirt series as a test dummy.
By the way... I am all for starting another sanctioning body for Legends on dirt. Eather that or USLC should proposition me to head up their dirt division... new modified testing and all (just sayin')
Apology if anyone has gotten mad about any of my post content.... Just trying to open some eyes since the need for a dirt tire is here and choosing the right one the first time is now
~ Gimpster ~
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OK...This is my very first post. Jim #17 will be happy now.
I've been following this subject quite close and am not necessarily a happy camper either. The dirt car I drive runs on a shoe string budget and this tire deal could go either way. I hope like most others that we either the BFG's will be competitive or at least we only have to purchase one set of the American Racers to get thru an entire season. If like the other gentleman says you have to buy more than 4 tires per year for changing track conditions or excessive tire wear, then I'm afraid the Legends dirt car division as we know it today will start loosing cars one by one and die a slow death. I am hoping that this never happens. I have a background of 22 years of Figure-8 racing prior to joining the Legends group 2 years ago and sure have had a lot of fun up to this point and I hope it doesn't change. Only time will tell us all I guess.
Just my two cents! ;D
Welcome to the forum !!
~ G ~
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I think most guys run the legends because its a form of racing they can afford and have a good time at it. Now i think if your were to run a IMCA mod you have a little bit of money, sponsors, Guys who know how to read tracks how to cut tires and on and on. I'm just trying to figure out how to drive this this and get a comfy setup under me, and now i need to figure out tires. Nope not me, I'm going to Madison.
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OK...This is my very first post. Jim #17 will be happy now.
I've been following this subject quite close and am not necessarily a happy camper either. The dirt car I drive runs on a shoe string budget and this tire deal could go either way. I hope like most others that we either the BFG's will be competitive or at least we only have to purchase one set of the American Racers to get thru an entire season. If like the other gentleman says you have to buy more than 4 tires per year for changing track conditions or excessive tire wear, then I'm afraid the Legends dirt car division as we know it today will start loosing cars one by one and die a slow death. I am hoping that this never happens. I have a background of 22 years of Figure-8 racing prior to joining the Legends group 2 years ago and sure have had a lot of fun up to this point and I hope it doesn't change. Only time will tell us all I guess.
Just my two cents! ;D
About time you got your ass on here Mark!
Wheres the hood off that figure 8 car? I dont see it on my wall?
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Thanks Gimpster... and Jim, there's no need to swear...LOL. I'm still working on that hood for you.
So, anyone have any idea when there will be some sort of official posting on the new tire rules?
Mark
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Probably in March
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You collect hoods ??
~ Gimpy ~
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I think in March sometime is when they are going to come out with the tire.
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You collect hoods ??
~ Gimpy ~
I sponsored Marks figure 8 car
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Sponsor spiffs are cool. I helped Andee Beierle this season (Young lions dirt #2 national finish and the highest female finisher in INEX for 2010 season). At one point her car was totalled and I let her race mine to keep her points up. Her father (Scott) is a real good freind of mine. They sent us some sweet stuff for helping them out this season.
Sad part is they will not be competing in Legends again. Those cars are sold. The tire was one big strike against the series. Andee has raced carts and mini sprints since she was young with good success. Not happy with Legends overall.
Not sure what division they will be racing next year. One recent conversation I had with Scott was about practicing on a track that is nearly identical to the Chili Bowl. Scott is good friends with and a sponsor of Sammy Swindell.
In a nutshell... if my health does not improve in the next few months, I'll abandon Legends also and help them out with what ever venture they decide.
So if you look around and see nobody... that would be me. Confirmed if USLC does not step up on this tire compound, eather way.
~ Gimpster ~
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I would love to see a 50 tire. Not saying the 57 would not work. Cause it's got to be better than the BFG. It a actual dirt tire. I dont think most racers would have a problem if they have to buy a extra tire every 8 to ten races for the RR if it wears. As long as it ain't every other race or so. I'm with Gimp getting to a 45-50 tire. But will end up rinning what ever they send us. You make it work or find something else. JMO
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My fault, I'm so use to running asphalt that i forgot that the only tire you really use is the RR. Sorry if I p@#*ed anyone off.
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Another concern I have is how much the tire size might vary from tire to tire with an actual race tire. The street production tires were so close that I did not need to have a big collection of tires to give me stagger options. If these tires have stagger that hits somewhere in wide range, we will have to have more on the trailer than with the BFG's. I would love to be able to have a little stagger to work with at times, but do not want to have to buy a bunch of extras. In the past with Hoosier E-mod tires, I would have to buy 3 or 4 tires to take the chance that once they were mounted and aired up, one of them would be the size I would need. Not complaining about having a race tire, but we could have some unintended consequences with this new tire.
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You guys worry too much. We don't have an option... we will use what they give us. Remember, we were almost stuck with that Federal tire. At least we have a real race tire, regardless of compound.
Give the boys at USLC your thoughts and concerns and they will do what they do. We just have to make the best of it.
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Amen Jeff I was thinking the same thing,was waitting till someone would realize this is kinda a good thing...... if it happens .
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Well, while I will agree that rough, the truth of the matter is exactly what Jeff stated from a racing standpoint. This is a spec class. That is part of the reason a lot of us run it. That fact is accepted when we buy the car and join the sanctioning body. Its not a "spending wars class" while there are a few things that money can buy in the class, the idea of spec is to not have to spend the $2000 or whatever a season for the newest set of heads, or whatever. This class was not designed for people to have to buy 5 different sets of tires of different compounds of tires so we can have them on hand every night. If the racers had that kind of money laying around, Do you think we'd be racing a legend? While they are a blast, and are fun and difficult to drive, I bet a lot of people would drive a faster car if in the financial position to do so.
Regardless of specific likes or dislikes of the tire, the class will go on. And a ton of people will go out there and have fun racing... you know, the whole reason we bought our cars. Not to complain about it. Like it or change classes. Its a national sanctioning body people.
That said, I'm sorry to see Gimp off of the boards. I respected his opinions, and enjoyed reading the technical side of his posts. If you read this Gimpster, I hope everything turns out well for you sir and I hope there are many more years of racing in your future. Legends or not.
Justin
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I hope there is a misunderstanding here. I really like this site because of the clean information being passed and discussed without the arguing and political b.s
Dennis Knox
Buckeye legends
330-310-9212
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OK, enough.
I will be cleaning up the thread and putting it back on track...tires.
Gimpster, take care buddy...keep on keepin' on.
If anyone has some BFG's they want to get rid of cheap in Wisconsin, let me know
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I just can't wait to have a REAL dirt tire. ..... ;D
Scott
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I have modified portions of this thread either by deletion or modifying the wording. I hope no one takes offense to this.
I know that sometimes issues become heated... And that's OK.
We are a forum here to discuss issues that affect Legends Cars, Thunder Roadsters and Bandolero Cars. We are NOT a political forum. That is why I urge members to to contact INEX about rule issues. My thinking is that the more folks that give their input directly to the rule makers the better. Any intentional post directed at a member, group or organization is not our purpose and WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. Please give consideration to what you post BEFORE you post it.
I DO NOT think that certain posts were meant in a malicious manner, so therefore have edited the thread.
Questions or comments may be directed to me via a Private Message or Email.
Let's ALL think about what we post and keep this site a friendly and informational place to learn from eachother.
Regards,
Steve
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I haven't posted anything for a long time, but I know when I was racing, I would have loved to try out a set of nice soft racing tires for a night, but wouldn't want to have to pay the bill for using them weekly. The BFG's seemed to last forever which isn't a bad thing. I don't believe soft tires will bring anyone new to the sport, but they sure will drive people away. And like the tires or not, if everyone is on the same tire, it does't really matter.
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Good to see your still here Brian. Once a Legends always a Legends...... ;D
Scott
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Good to see your still here Brian. Once a Legends always a Legends...... ;D
Scott
Hey Scott,
I'm still interested in what is happening with Legends, but don't keep up on the site like I used to. I know I would love to try out that new Dirt car that USLC has.
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Has anyone heard any more on the tires. I know that Darrel told me they would be here at the end of the month. I was just wondering if that is on hold while they get things straight in the front office. It would be nice to have some sort of time frame so you could budget for the new tires. Thanks
Scott
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I spoke with Iowa dealer Warren Ropp two days ago. He told me he originally purchased 150 of the new dirt tires a few weeks ago and 90 of them sold within one day. His tire price is $110.00 each. Also, he told me these new tires will require a beadlock on RR as they are single ply tires. New beadlocks cost $134.00 plus clear cover at $18.00. Tires come all the same size, however, they change approx. 1" in circumference for every 10 PSI. So besides everyone opening up their wallet to get started with these tires, a new learning curve with setups will become very important.
Good luck! ::)
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...and many of the bigger wallets buying lots of tires to achieve maximum stagger.
Just called USLC and was told by the guy in the parts department that he has "heard alot of different things", but they should be there "by the end of the month"
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Not compaining (still better than other types of racing) but I thought the price on the new tires would be lower than that. Guess we will find out.
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Yes, good on the dirt tire approval for sure ! See now where the fuel for my fire comes from though when I heard the announcement ? Don't get me wrong, just looking ahead is all I was doing. Price of the tire, compound you get etc. Apology to all for anything I said that may have ruffled any feathers. Big thanks to those who have apreciated good tech advice shared. that's why we are here right ? Hope to meet you all some day. Will be a learning curve as mentioned for stagger and set-ups for most, but hey... quicker lap times ?? Haha, I can see everyone firing up the generators and digging out the buffing wheels to scuff the good back in those tires ! If you are new to this tire, I suggest you chat with racers from other divisions to get the up and up on them... Enjoy what we got, I guess.. Anyone hear of how they will regulate the tire ?? Specially stamped 'Legends edition' to keep fellers like me from buying softer tires elsewhere ?? hmmmm maybe the holdup is in marking them or maybe they have researched a little more and going with a softer tire ? Time will tell
Later...
- The Gimpster -
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One question that they will need to address by INEX is grinding marks on the tires. A grinding wheel with a rough grit that can do the tires quickly will leave marks. When I used a finer grit on the BRG's with the belt sander, it was a slow process. I get the impression that most people did not grind the BFG's, but with a race tire I agree that it will probalby be needed.
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Yes and those marks can be stratigically placed as an advantage in the cooling of what I call a closed thread (broader lugs) that will hold heat longer.Plus a bias ply tire takes heat different than a steel belted radial. We never were checked here for tire softness, and like I confessed to Mike Patrick on the phone the other day, I softened the BFG and kept them between 48 and 50 on the durometer. Haha, they still lasted forever. Mike mentioned the cost of keeping them at that low of a reading and I sighed "Ahmen". Getting off topic here, I am. In a way USLCI is lucky they have Ray on their side for the dirt tire knowledge which I would think is the source they are referring for dirt tire info. I still question the compound, espicially with his input, but maybe he isn't familiar with these light cars and narrower tire as opposed to a midget etc.. ?? Pure speculation from me there and I will let the compound topic rest. I know I sound like a broken record already. You all know my thoughts on that topic.
Not only will the Legends racer be on a learning curve with this tire... USLCI will be on one too. Dirt tech fellers better be on their game too within the first season of this tire because the racers will try all the knowledge out there on the tires... trust me
Those of you who have never raced with a lot of stagger, get ready. Sweet to get on the throttle and pull left. Just remember.. letting off is just the opposite, be prepared when bailing out of the loud lever avoiding other wrecks and for cautions the first few times out there as opposed to the BFG. It will come natural to you though after running the stagger.
- Gimpster -
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One question that they will need to address by INEX is grinding marks on the tires. A grinding wheel with a rough grit that can do the tires quickly will leave marks. When I used a finer grit on the BRG's with the belt sander, it was a slow process. I get the impression that most people did not grind the BFG's, but with a race tire I agree that it will probalby be needed.
Most of the guys I know ground their BFG's, one member of the site even ground his between the heat and the main. I did mine every week
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BTW - Jim's correct regarding grinding of the BFG's and also forgot to mention that the tire durometer will be 57 as stated by Warren. ::)
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$110 is still cheaper than the asphalt guys by the time they cut theirs. I know that some people will try and skirt the rule book but I think that you would be better served to work on a good solid setup that is with in the rules. No doubt we will be thrown a loop with this new tire but when all is said and done you never stray far from where you started. Should be fun trying to get a good set-up to work though. Sounds like a great year coming.
Scott
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Agreed.. good year coming. I'm getting calls, emails and private messages already for set-up concerns to adapt to the tire change
Fine tuners can ponder the rebound differences between the BFG and the American Racer Tire ( ART ), for one. Set-ups will vary some
----- Gimpster -----
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Wow $110 is a bit overpriced. Thats an $85 for any other division but I guess we have to pay for the INEX stamp on the sidewall.
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haha.. check this out
http://compare.ebay.com/like/400192312054?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&rvr_id=214929777847&crlp=1_263602_309572&UA=WVI8&GUID=7c42160912e0a0aa14c67a86fff626fb&itemid=400192312054&ff4=263602_309572 (http://compare.ebay.com/like/400192312054?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&rvr_id=214929777847&crlp=1_263602_309572&UA=WVI8&GUID=7c42160912e0a0aa14c67a86fff626fb&itemid=400192312054&ff4=263602_309572)
... and that is a 10 inch.
I suppose the budget racer could buy an American Racer T-shirt and run his BFG's yet
- Gimp -
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You guys worry too much. We don't have an option... we will use what they give us. Remember, we were almost stuck with that Federal tire. At least we have a real race tire, regardless of compound.
Give the boys at USLC your thoughts and concerns and they will do what they do. We just have to make the best of it.
On the price?
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... and that is a 10 inch.
I suppose the budget racer could buy an American Racer T-shirt and run his BFG's yet
- Gimp -
I know I'll be starting the season on my BFG's...we'll see what the season brings
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Actually, pricing seems to be about right when compared with day motorsports.
http://www.daymotorsports.com/product/522/MINI-STOCK_%26_MIDGET_TIRES_TREAD_PATTERN_G
Part Number T-J2JMH is a 22.5" Tall tire with a 57 compound. $109.99
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... and that is a 10 inch.
I suppose the budget racer could buy an American Racer T-shirt and run his BFG's yet
- Gimp -
I know I'll be starting the season on my BFG's...we'll see what the season brings
I don't blame you
- G -
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Actually, pricing seems to be about right when compared with day motorsports.
http://www.daymotorsports.com/product/522/MINI-STOCK_%26_MIDGET_TIRES_TREAD_PATTERN_G
Part Number T-J2JMH is a 22.5" Tall tire with a 57 compound. $109.99
The pricing would be right if we ran a 9.5" tire but we use a 7" which they sell for $87.99. I used an American Racer 7" on my sportsman midget that was $84 and would have been a great tire for us.
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I think it was around 2005 that I suggested starting our own sanctioning body for Legends.
' Outlaw Legends ' sounds good to me... the right tires, no engine seals etc...
lol Where do we start ?
- Gimpster -
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We were going to purchase four new American Racer tires to start the season, but after finding out the price, it's not going to happen. Guess we'll be starting the season on our BFG's right with Jim also. Hopefully most of the other teams will stay with the BFG's for now also. If we get run over every week by others with the American Racer's, other avenues of racing with our car will be explored. This is not a threat by any means, just stating the facts. ::)
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Does anyone know if we can mix BFG's and the new tires? Thinking new tires on the back and BFG's on the front might do OK if the budget requires it.
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Hm, interesting. Maybe i'll stick with my BFG's to start out as well. Guess it all depends on the performance of the AR's. Just from the specs and what we know of this new tire will the BFG be able to run with it?
-asphalt allows no mixing of tires, has to be a set of 4 feds or bfgs, so i guess i would assume that it has to be a set of 4, but thats just my guess
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Hm, interesting. Maybe i'll stick with my BFG's to start out as well. Guess it all depends on the performance of the AR's. Just from the specs and what we know of this new tire will the BFG be able to run with it?
-asphalt allows no mixing of tires, has to be a set of 4 feds or bfgs, so i guess i would assume that it has to be a set of 4, but thats just my guess
I believe they will follow suit with the asphalt rule. At the same thread compound the only real advantage is stagger. The tires will react different on dryslick per radial and bias from heat retained though
- Gimpster -
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The dwarf car guys ran the AR tires for years with good success. Most organizing bodies have been searching for a cheaper tire after the price increase
I think it doubtful that INEX will allow mixing the tires. About all we can do is wait until INEX formally announces the new tire rule.
Gimpster,
Pull the fenders and running boards off the coupe and run dwarfs. Most sanctioning bodies run engine size limits. Most are "stock" engines, but some allow fuel injection.
Steve
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The dwarf car guys ran the AR tires for years with good success. Most organizing bodies have been searching for a cheaper tire after the price increase
I think it doubtful that INEX will allow mixing the tires. About all we can do is wait until INEX formally announces the new tire rule.
Gimpster,
Pull the fenders and running boards off the coupe and run dwarfs. Most sanctioning bodies run engine size limits. Most are "stock" engines, but some allow fuel injection.
Steve
I have some to add to that suggestion after supper Steve...You already know that Wanda deleted my Yahoo Groups accounts....
- Gimpster -
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We are getting way off topic with this. Send me an email or message me. lol!
Steve
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Steve... I had apologised for getting off the tire topic in that last post, but on this site when you quote someone you run out of text box to type in real fast. With a keystroke it momentairly jumps to what you are typing. I went back to correct a typing error and deleted more than I wanted. LOL the apology part.
The tire topic set of a bunch of bad stuff for me on both sites. Now with the tire price and wrong compound Wanda pulled the plug on my racing Legends. I will fade away eventually. Hang around here a while and help with techno stuff every now and then. Keep my opinions to myself and move onto another division (Gimp hears the applause in the background as he leaves).
I will post my chassis in the for sale section in the next few days
Thanks everyone.... enjoy your new tire
- Gimpster -
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Gimpster,
I was talking about the dwarf car and "outlaw" Legends car stuff. Would love to banter this stuff back and forth with you; Just not on the forum.
I always appreciate your input!
Steve
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Gotcha.. see what we can get going there my friend
On this tire topic I keep hitting dead ends when trying to research it and no leaks from sources at the mother ship.
My experience with these tires leads me to dig a little deeper. The 13" AR tires normally ran are 7.5" wide and have cheesy beads where a beedlock is almost needed on all corners. unless I am missing something, they claim to have an 8" wide tire. If they are adapting this tire I have some dumb questions starting with "Is American racer making this tire real special so the bead will stay on a steel wheel without a tube in it ?"
Dumb questions I normally can find out from my wide array of sources but the answers seem to be locked away this time. What is so special about this tire ? Are they afraid we will come up with another source to buy them or what ? Nobody is talking.. how are they marked for Inex etc...
- Gimp -
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You guys realize that this new tire is only $10 more than the BFG. If $40 is enough to sway your mind from getting a new set of tires I think you need to revisit your budget. I am rather disappointed that the tire costs as much as it does, I really thought with the switch they would get a cheaper tire.
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You guys realize that this new tire is only $10 more than the BFG. If $40 is enough to sway your mind from getting a new set of tires I think you need to revisit your budget. I am rather disappointed that the tire costs as much as it does, I really thought with the switch they would get a cheaper tire.
Good point
You think since they are bias, the racers will go through more tires though than the BFG ? That is when it gets spendy
- G -
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Jeff,
I think that is the biggest thing... Most people were hoping for a bit cheaper tire. Also, I think a lot of them want to see how the tire performs and how long it lasts.
Steve
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You hang around more dwarf guys Steve... how they been standing up in their division ? I went through my share in mini sprints
- Gimp -
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You hang sround more dwarf guys Steve... how they been standing up in their division ? I went through my share in mini sprints
- Gimp -
Some sanctioning bodies still mandate them. Most news I have heard is that they hold up well. What some are trying to do is find a cheaper tire. Also, several are going back to stock engines and getting away from spending a ton on monster motors. As a lot of the newer bike engine are now fuel injected; they are allowing them, but with weight penalties.
Steve
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Weight penalties... hmmm food for thought
Joe (FFmedic) almost fell over when I told him air pressures you could drop to with these tires to make them work, last night. Told him I would help him some with set-ups this year. Had to change my spring poundage thinking once I found out what he weighs compared to me.. lol
- Gimp -
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Price of this tire doesn't bother me, $10 more per tire really isnt much at all, and assuming they will last a full season it's really not that big of a deal. My thing is if i can run my BFGs for another year and compete against the AR's, why spend $400 that isnt needed? I already have my money aside for these tires and actually didnt even think the BFGs would be legal this year until i read some fellow racers that i compete against are planning to start out on the BFGs again
I still haven't decided whether i'll start the season with the ARs or not. If i decide not to and the BFGs cant compete with these then no question i'll be ordering them rather quick. If i had to decide right now i'm going to order these tires and test them out before the season starts. I'll always have the BFGs sitting in the corner waiting to be mounted up again, and pleanty of them.
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Just a heads up here.
$440 is starting to sound cheap ? Look ahead (and back) for a minute. Looking back.. this is a bias ply tire and durability is at hand, like it or not. Looking ahead your tire bill will go up. Once everyone starts figuring out stagger you will need to have a few more tires expanded to different stagger as spares to adjust for changing track conditions to remain competetive. That is only 2 extra tires if you get lucky and not ruin a tube from a bumper snagging a tubes valve stem, goes flat and cuts a sidewall before you get to the pits, snag someone's running board and cut a sidewall, guard rail and so on...
Your tire bill is now at least $660 and pending your luck maybe $1100 for the season ?? You might get lucky and not cut any tires down. Just think though.. if the tire doesn't last what the waste of having a hard compound was, when a softer compound would have promoted better racing and/or improved avoiding the fore mentioned tire ruining accident.
Not meant to offend anyone... just sayin' they should have approved the 53 in this light of a chassis
- Gimpster -
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Heres my educated quess on the tire situation. AR came up with a legends specific tire which is why the cost is high. New compound and design from anything they were making.
I find it hard to believe that running a bias ply against a radial is going to be a good match. I think with this new tire we are going to be at least .3-.4sec per lap faster than with the BFG's. This is just from experience and I havent even seen the new tire in person.
I dont think wear will be an issue at least in our area, our tracks rarely get slick and arent very abrasive. Even the tires on the modified lasted all season except for the RR. I wouldnt get to worked up over tire wear, I dont think it will be an issue.
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Exactly... quicker. The tire will weigh less too.
Here we have different clay on all the tracks. Minot ND will leave your front fenders nearly sanded and body chipped up from the rocks. I guess the hard compound would be good there.
- Gimp -
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Can you explain to us how a 53 duro tire will not get cut down on a running board, guard rail, etc.?
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You read into that on your own... I never said a 53 would not cut down
My reference was for the short life of that cut down tire the traction quality would have been greater during it's life
See ya steve
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Actually, I didn't read anything but your posted words...
"a softer compound would have promoted better racing and/or improved avoiding the fore mentioned tire ruining accident."
...was just looking for an explanation/clarification of how a 53 compound would avoid the "tire ruining". Were you referring to better tire reaction due to softer compound in avoidance? I can see that a little, not alot from a 58 to a 53, but I can see a point there...but I see you quit the forum again, so I may or may not get an answer...?
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I have to agree 100% with Gimpsters's explanation regarding the requirement for extra tires needed for stagger, durabiltiy, and so forth. An interesting point mentioned was that will we need more than beadlock on the RR to keep these tires on the rims? Also, I agree with Jeff that I find it hard to believe that the BFG's will even come close to matching up with the AR's regarding lap times and wear should not be an issue. Once one car has them and is that much faster, most will purchase the new tires or stay home I guess. As they say, once one jumps over the cliff, everyone else will too. ::)
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That goes back to my point about being able to mix tires. Hopefully they allow it. I think that you could run the new tires on the back with BFG's on the front and still be pretty fast (assuming you setup for the extra traction) without having to spend as much money. Guess we do not make the rules, so just thinking out loud.
I agree on the extra tires for stagger. The production will not be as exact as on a street tire, so there will be a wider variation in size from tire to tire. It will give you more setup options, but you will need more tires to work with. There is good and bad with going to a race tire, but I think we will be better off.
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I know that you wont be able to mix and match tire brands, and you wont want to. Remeber that we are going from a very stiff steel belted radial to a much softer bias ply carcass. This is excluding rubber compound, the shell of the tire will be softer.
Beadlocks wont be needed, if a similar tire can hold a bead on a 2500lbs car at 10psi I am sure we can do it on our 1400lbs cars.
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There will be no mixing and matching.
I'll echo what Jeff and Gimpster said, that is not something I would want to do even if it were permissable.
Analogy....Step on an inflated balloon, then go step on an inflated soccer ball. Much more give to the balloon.
The balloon is the American Racer, the Soccer ball is the BFG. Now imagine how that would upset the car.
You know what a pile of BFG's look like, attached is a pile of American Racers. Note they are not as structured a piece as the BFG is.
Alot more flex, less rigidity, which is what makes it a race tire, not a street tire like we were used to.
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It looks like we will have to use one or the other, but speaking hypothetically I think that BFG’s on the front and American Racers on the back would work. They have different spring rates, sidewall construction, etc. but I do not see it as being unworkable as long as you keep the same tires on the same axle and have adjusted the setup for it. The front tires are not doing as much work as the rear tires on dirt, so I think that you could give live with the stiffer, harder compound tires on the front. You would not want to mix side to side because of the issues everyone mentioned. 4 American Racers would be best, but I think that 2 AR's on the back would be more competitive than 4 BFG's. Asphalt would be a whole different story.
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OK kids, lets all play nice!
Here is my out look on things; AR did not pick a Legends specific tire. The same tires have been used on dwarf cars for years with good results. INEX looked at them for that reason. If you read about Legends Car history, they originated from the Dwarf Car chassis built by the Dwarf Car Company.
Softer tire compounds would be better for grip and speed, but will not last as long on dry slick tracks, or tracks with a lot of rocks. Sharp rocks are a very real hazard to the bias ply tire. Hell, any tire for that matter!
Mixing bias ply tires and radials are not recommended by any manufacturer that I am aware of. I think that INEX will apply the same rules to the dirt tires as the pavement tires... No mixing.
Tire stagger... Bias ply tires will grow more than a radial tire. You can mess with them a bit just by using the old sun trick. Overinflate them a bit, set them out in the sun for awhile and they will stretch some. Works with the radials to a lesser degree because of the heavier construction of the tire.
We can speculate all day long. In the end, it will come down to whatever rules INEX applies to the tires. Since they are not out yet, we will just have to wait.
Steve
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This may be a stupid question but are we going to have more side bite with this tire?
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Does it really matter in your case Brandon?
Mr. I run 3 lbs in my RR with BFG's?
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This may be a stupid question but are we going to have more side bite with this tire?
Yes, a lot more.
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Just saw a note from the dealer here that the tires will be available in late April. I hope they stick with that date and that is what I expected.
Scott
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Wow...USLC told me "sometime in March".
Guess there will be mid-season set up changes, since there is racing going on already.
Too bad those that are going to run them wont have the benefit of pre-season test and tune days on them.
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Jim, I ran a few more pounds than 3 in the rr..I think that tire had a leak that night.
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Jim, I ran a few more pounds than 3 in the rr..I think that tire had a leak that night.
Yeah, right ::)
Didn't mean to give away your secret, Champ ;)
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I like this conversation, especially Jim's points (don't get a big head Jim)!
Being an Asphalt guy who wants to run a couple of dirt races this year I don't want to have to buy a full set of the new dirt tire, but would be willing to give up some speed if I could only have to buy 2 for the rear and use my old BFG's for the front! I hope this could be an option at least for this year, especially for those of us who are just out to race for the fun of it (I don't expect to win any dirt races anytime soon)!
I know not many liked the bfg's but at least you could run them on both asphalt and dirt. Now with seperate tires for both it will be a little more xpensive if I wanted to attempt to keep up with the field.
Gerad
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According to Darrell (before his departure), you can run Federals on dirt this year if that helps ya, but everything has to be the same brand on the car
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But really you had two different tires on asphalt and dirt even though they were the same. Asphalt tires were cut and dirt wasn't but you could run the cut tire but you weren't going to be very competitive. I know guys ran cut tires on dirt but never really seen them work that good. I have run both dirt and asphalt with these cars and I personal have a lot more fun on dirt but the most important thing is to have fun.
Jim I know that they were shooting for the end of the month but in my heart I really thought that it would be mid summer. We will see.
Scott
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Looking forward to giving the new tires a try. Wish I had a bigger tree in the backyard for all of the tire swings I could make out of the BFG's. Guess I could make a tire barrier in case my 4 year old looses control of his battery powered truck.
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If/when the new tires come in, and do prove to have the claimed advantage, I'll be making a tire run in the backyard as part of my sons football training obstacle course...at least I wont have to pay to dipose of them
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Our dealer in ND is working on getting our old BFG's sold to a group of 4 cylinder guys at a track out east. I guess they run the same size tire as us legend guys. So even if they are sold for $10 or less at least I'd make money instead of loosing it.
Joe
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Straight from the the centralpalegends.com web site.
US Legends recently informed us that we should receive the new dirt tire by the end of April. We’ll need to start the season using the BF Goodrich. Once the new tires arrive the decision can be made as to when to allow the use of the new dirt tire.
I hope that they do come earlier
Scott
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Yes Scott I was woundering the same thing ? when did it become a choice ? or a rule ? of central pa legends ? I thought this year both americans and BFG could be run ???
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INEX rules are that in 2011 you can run BFG's, American Racers, or Federals on dirt.
Your club or track can change rules to be more strict, but not more lenient.
Example: Beaver Dam mandates door padding, though INEX only recommends it.
If the guys running your series say you have to run certain tires, they can make that choice, as long as it is one of the tires legal under INEX
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actually Jim a club or series can't change rules of USLC if they are running USLC sanctions and points. I have called and found this out. However a track or track owner can mandate more safety for example. Look at the rules that New Jersey has in place and that is mandated and run by the state police for some reason. Another example is the "no mirror" rule, this is mandated by the track in the name of safety. Bad example to make things safer but that is whole different topic.
Scott
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They don't want to allow the AR's as soon as the first 8 or 10 arrive. That wouldn't be fair to the other 22 cars in the field. I for one would want everyone to have a chance to purchase them if they choose to. Now if Ed gets a huge batch right off the bat and everyone can get them, I'm sure we will all get to run them. Even if I were the first to get them, I wouldn't want to run them until everyone can have them, even though I need all the help I can get, I would feel like I'm cheating.
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Yea Rick, that is the same thing that they did when they got the Federal tires. It is the fair thing to do. I hear you though, and I too would take the advantage. ;D
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actually Jim a club or series can't change rules of USLC if they are running USLC sanctions and points. I have called and found this out. However a track or track owner can mandate more safety for example. Look at the rules that New Jersey has in place and that is mandated and run by the state police for some reason. Another example is the "no mirror" rule, this is mandated by the track in the name of safety. Bad example to make things safer but that is whole different topic.
Scott
Ok, maybe "change" was the wrong word, but were both saying the same thing.
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Hey Jim!
I for one could never figure out the mandate that you have to run door padding. As far as safety is concerned it is kind of a farce. Let's see, two years ago we were required to install the SFI rated, fire retardant roll bar padding, but yet we are required to run expensive INEX door pads that burn like a dried up Christmas tree. Makes no sense to me. Don't get me wrong, I understand the intention of the padding to provide safety to the driver. However, if we're required to install some sort of padding, then that padding should be fire retardant also. I installed adhesive backed fire retardant padding in my car and it only cost me $58 and is much safer.
Just my opinion! Mark ::)
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This is the door padding im getting -
http://www.saferacer.com/g-force-sfi-sheet-padding.html?productid=2182
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The AR's will be available to everyone. Just going to take a little time for all dealers to have them available. Since the 2011 rulebook is not out there for all of us to see, lets not start getting crazy. Some tracks DO mandate things that they deem as "safety" rules. Mirrors, padding, etc... They are trying to cover thier butts too. Track insurace isn't cheap. For those that start early in the season, it's going to be a rough start. Not everyone is going to run out and buy sets of tires based on rumors or conjecture. Those on limited budgets are going to start on what they have available and what the rules allow. Lets just try to keep cool heads about all this stuff.
Everyone will have to deal with the rules the best that they are able.
Steve
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I like that door padding you put up Ethan , you don't mind if I copy do you? This whole tire thing sucks, I was hoping we could start the season off with new tires seeing how I don't have a good set.
Does someone have 2 BFG they would like to get rid of?
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Go for it, i haven't measured the door yet so idk if you'll need to get 1 or 2. I'll probably go with 2.
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We were told they will be here by the end of March just last week...
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Just came from my dealer and he said that USLC called and told him that the tires are shipping on March 22nd. So lets hope they are actually right.
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Received an email this afternoon that the new tires have been delivered to Warren from Bulltown Legends, we will be able to pick them up this weekend.
Brian Peterson
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I'm so excited that the new dirt tires came early rather than later. Now all those who can't afford to buy these new tires right away will really have their work cut out for them and probably get run over. We'll start with our BFG's and if it doesn't work out, we can always run our dirt car on asphalt too. Time will tell I guess...enough said. ::)
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Ed Trump at Central Pa Legends has the new tires. He got a shipment Friday and I think he is getting another shipment Monday. There appears to be enough for everyone so you can run them at the next race if desired. I haven't mounted mine but a quick check with the durometer shows them in the neighborhood of 70 so they may be a decent tire for us. I guess I'm trying to be optimistic even though I really liked the BFG's. They lasted forever and their inherent lack of grip kept the playing field really level since no matter what you did, the tires were the limiting factor.
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70 is a pretty high duro number. Didn't the BFGs run around 60 something? Anyway... I am thinking that they should last awhile.
I am also thinking that once everyone gets switched over, the playing field will still be pretty even. Will be interested to see what thoughts are on the ARs compared to the BFGs. For dirt, I still think that the BFGs and ARs are a better deal than the Federals. The Federal tread design was just one that was never really meant for a dirt surface.
Steve
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I picked mine up this afternoon they duro at 70 outside in the garage at 21 degrees, they have a large block design bigger than I was expecting and they are very very soft and pliable.
Brian
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Can someone take picture and post it of the tire and tread patter please. Thanks
Scott
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My BFG's are all 70 or over and it's about the same for those I race with. I tried soaking a while back and could only get them down to 60 and didn't notice any difference. Once I started buffing off the tires with a sander to smooth out the feathering, I started doing better. When I won my first race last year, my right front was at 72 and right rear was 74. I think the hardness will be a key to getting some life out of them. Still the sidewalls are pretty flimsy, but dirt tires have always seemed like tubes with tread on them anyhow. I realize that whatever they went to would have to be a little better than BFG's or they would have to ban the BFG's to keep the folks that stock piled them from having an advantage. Just wondering, how hard are the Federals?
If you look at my earlier posts, I've been pretty much against this move based on my previous experience racing on Hoosiers and AR's, but I'm now pretty optimistic. The tires I used to run on the stock car were 40 to 45 hardness if I remember right (mostly Hoosier RC1's).
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I don't have any mounted yet, but I believe this link is for the same tire.
http://www.americanraceronline.com/Dirt-track/dirt-midgets.html
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I've always run pavement. Had good success with GoodYear takeoffs from the ASA guys. Never duro'd them as I wasn't that high tech back then. lol!
I think the Federals would make for an ok pavement tire, but tread is all wrong for dirt. Perhaps someone running the Federals can enlighten us on what they duro.
I agree that the hardness will help them last longer. The flimsy sidewalls should be a good deal on the dirt. Gimpster brought up tire pressure on the ARs. He has since deleted his posts. With the beadlock on the right rear, it could be interesting. I'm waiting to see how people like the new tire. I am very optimistic about the new tire for the dirt folks.
Steve
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Its a dirt tire, it should be better then what we have run on dirt before. heck might even get some stagger out of the tires..
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Just recieved 130 dirt tires today. cant wait to try them out..
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mounted mine tonight. put 10 pounds in and measured it and it was 70 1/2. Put 35 pounds in it for 15 minutes and then dropped it back down and now it's at 72 1/16. I wonder how much they would stretch in the sun.
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Alot. Fill it up and toss it outside for the day tomorrow.
While all my BFG's still duro in the low 60's (one at 59 dated 2008), it will be interesting to see the difference between the 2 on the track. Will definately be some trial and error with new set-ups for those who get the new tires.
I guess we'll see! Season doesn't start for another month in Wisconsin...hopefully we get some updates from our warm weather friends
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I was worried about the block size on them, but there not bad. they will be alot different. they weigh less then the BFG and i think your going to have to loosen your car up some, there going to bite. we have play day the 9th, so im ready to try them out. its going to be fun to play with stagger again! but just my opinion, i dont think your going to be able to run really low air pressure in them like everyone thinks, but i could be wrong. we will see.
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This from Warren Ropp of Bulltown Legends:
IMPORTANT NOTICE ! Do Not mount your new dirt tires yet. There is a question regarding the direction they need to be mounted .
All of these tires are built with camber. It appears that the large diameter side of the tire is the side with the ser# on it, but in some cases that would mean that the arrow is stamped in the wrong direction. I have a meeting with US Legend Cars Int. tomorrow. I will send out another email when I find out more.
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Sorry, but if they just would have stayed with the BFG tires, we wouldn't have all these headaches or even started this long thread.... :o
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They couldnt stay with the BFG's, they wanted 600 to purchase a million bucks worth of tires a year or some crazy number like that. thats why the BFG's went away!
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I think these tires will be alot better than the BFG's :)
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Sorry, but if they just would have stayed with the BFG tires, we wouldn't have all these headaches or even started this long thread.... :o
BFGoodrich stopped making the T/A line . They wanted (and rightfully so) for INEX/600/USLC to pay for the re-tooling to make this one tire that could only be sold by I/6/U.
I/6/U didn't want to pay, so the BFG went away.
My idea was to get Fleet Farm to sponsor the series, and we could all run on their rock hard Roadrunner brand tires at $40 each in keeping with the original idea set forward from the beginning...tires being the equalizer, but nobody wanted that.
Its unfortunate that we have 2 different tires now, will make the casual crossover guys disappear I would guess.
I do agree that the move will probably seperate the $8,000 motors from the regular guy motors by putting more power down though, but that still remains to be seen.
We can't bash too much until we see the performance difference. Remember, they told us the Federals were 3 tenths faster on dirt...mmmhmmm, yeah, OK ::)
Would be helpful for us cold weather guys to get some input from you southern boys on how things go this weekend.
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I have a play day next weekend, im going to be trying a bunch of different things out. these tires are wider and taller then the others. i really dont think you want to run a whole lot of stagger, but we will see. i will be more then happy to share anything i findout. i think you might have to change to a different gear then what you use to run at a certain track...
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I agree about the stagger issue. These things are so twitchy as it is, they aren't Sprint cars.
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This from Warren Ropp of Bulltown Legends:
IMPORTANT NOTICE ! Do Not mount your new dirt tires yet. There is a question regarding the direction they need to be mounted .
All of these tires are built with camber. It appears that the large diameter side of the tire is the side with the ser# on it, but in some cases that would mean that the arrow is stamped in the wrong direction. I have a meeting with US Legend Cars Int. tomorrow. I will send out another email when I find out more.
UPDATE From Warren:
Here's the scoop. Don't worry about the arrows on the tire, the tires can be ran both directions.
I recommend that the side with the ser# on it should face to the out side of the track (to your right when sitting in the car )
The ser# side is larger in diameter than the other side . Don't worry about the white lettering, it makes no difference .
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With the tires being taller, everyone make sure to keep an eye on your right rear fender clearance. Would hate to see people messing up their new tires the first time out.
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Wouldn't we want the small side facing the outside of the track so that when the tire rolls over we have a better contact patch (like the asphalt cut tires)?
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Good point on the fender clearance.
I have no knowledge of how they cut asphalt tires having never tried it... ???
Just relaying messages
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I agree with JG racing as our asphalt tires on right side are run with the larger diameter run towards the inside of car. Makes no sense to me unless camber cutting for asphalt is different than dirt? ???
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I couldn't find anything on AR's but they used to be the same as Hoosiers as far as mounting them with the ser# toward the infield of the track (aka left side of the car). http://www.hoosiertire.com/mounting.HTM
I always ran Hoosiers but I had friends that switched back and forth (or even mix matched, which I didn't agree with) and they always mounted both brands the same.
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Any body check the weights of these tires and wheels?
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Depends on the wheels you have.
I know people have said the tires are alot lighter than the BFG's though
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I know Jim, I guess i shouldn't have put it down as a question. They don't fit into the rules.
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I heard that there going to make changes in the rule book for the dirt cars. and the fenders are one, there going to let you mount them higher. and also the front end because these tires are 8" wide and not a 7, because right now my car wouldnt fit through the front end gage with these tires on it!
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I know Jim, I guess i shouldn't have put it down as a question. They don't fit into the rules.
Yeah, the wheel/tire combo minimum weight rule would make everyone illegal
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I heard that there going to make changes in the rule book for the dirt cars. and the fenders are one, there going to let you mount them higher. and also the front end because these tires are 8" wide and not a 7, because right now my car wouldnt fit through the front end gage with these tires on it!
Sucks for the guys with the 34 coupes. They have the bodyline in the rear that the fenders go up against...not sure how to raise them.
How are we going to raise the front fenders? Would have to raise the grill up off the frame horns...
Anyone have a set on their car yet? Wonder about front suspension and header clearances too...
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Would allowing the right rear fender lip to be cut more help on the 34 bodies? Hope we do not have to get into different offset wheels for the dirt tires. I would imagine that they ran into some of this stuff during testing, unless the final product is a different size than what they used.
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i mounted mine but didnt air them up yet, its been kinda cold and they wouldnt bead up right
, so im going to air them up saturday when its goung to be 80 here....
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I'm sorry, but I am very disappointed with this new tire so far. :'(
First, cost is much more than most anticipated at $110 each
Second, you will probably have to buy a beadlock at $134 for RR if you don't already have one.
Third, it took forever to get thes new tires to dealers.
Fourth, discrepencies with mounting. Directional arrows mean nothing??? Larger diameter toward right side???
Fifth, these new tires do not clear fenders properly??? Now possible rule amemdment to mount fenders higher. Why not just take the fenders off and call them outlaw Legends?
Sixth, tires are much lighter. Now possilbe rule amendment for weight for combo of AR tires and wheels.
Seventh, tires are wider and cars do not fit thru 60" width gauge. Geez, anyone with BFG's will be at a real disadvantage due to wider track width and more bite as compared to the AR tires.
Eight, possilbe wheel offset changes to accomodate above mentioned width change.
Nine, possible interference with exhaust header and other steering components.
And finally Ten, this whole deal is really starting to sound like a can of worms.
I have never personally met the Gimpster, but now I know why he feels the way he does and is hanging it up. Jim's solution of using some sort of street tire comparable to the BFG's sure makes a whole lot of sense. I vote Jim for president! OK, I've said enough on this topic for now.
Have a great weekend to all! Mark
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I have a rule book but what is the rule on the rear fender? I dont see whats the big deal on moving the fender up.
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there are always going to be problems with a change. but give it a chance first. these are not any different then a AR mod tire. i wasnt and im still not happy with the width. but AR couldnt make a 7" wide tire. they tried and something didnt work. just give it 4 or 5 races and see how it goes. But everybody has to remember theres going to be flaws in these tires, they are not a radial and they dont have to meet all the specs of a radial. its a dirt tire.
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I have a rule book but what is the rule on the rear fender? I dont see whats the big deal on moving the fender up.
The 34 coupes have a body line on them that sticks out about an inch all the way around the car. The body was designed so that the fender is contoured with the body line, fitting just underneath it. No rule on mounting rear fenders, would just be a pain to try to mount the flat side of a rear fender onto a round body line if it is indeed necessary.
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Ok, because i read the rule and I didn't see the problem with moving the fender up.
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Vince,
There isn't an issue with moving the fender up.
Mark,
1. The tires are not that much more expensive.
2. A lot of guys are already running the beadlock. If you don't want to, then don't run a right rear tire pressure that requires one.
3. It really didn't take long to get the tires out to the dealer. I thought it would have taken a lot longer.
4. Other than Jim's post on mounting the tires, I have not heard anything about the mounting. Common sense takes precedents.
5. No rule amendment needed for tires to clear fenders.
6. I have not heard from anyone on the wheel/ tire combo not meeting weight. Will have to see who can weigh in on that situation.
7. To the best of my knowledge, tires are not wider.
8. Doubtful that any drastic changes will be needed to use the new tires.
9. Will have to hear back from those that have the new tires on any interference with steering or headers. Not a hard fix though.
10. If you don't think the new tire is for you, then don't use it. I think the BFG's are a usable tire for dirt (as has already been proven). While not perfect; They do get the job done.
The rules are what the rules are. None of us here on the site make them. Lets all try to find the best way to work within the rules that are given.
Steve
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I personally think everybody is going to like how your car will drive with these tires. the price is just $10.00 higher then the BFG's, but honestly your going to be at a disadvantage if you dont run the AR tires. i just dont see how a radial tire is going to compete on dirt with a true dirt tire. Im excited to try them out. But the tires are wider then the feds and the BFG's. just alittle bit.
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Yes we will find problems with the new tires over the first few weeks of the season, but you know what we will figure them out, fix the problem and we will all be fine.
I love to have a dirt tire and a beadlock finally!!!! This is dirt racing and we have been given the tools to run faster and with much more car control. If anything the faster guys should be upset with the change, this will make everyone faster because the cars will be easier to drive. And because of better car control it should cut down on spins and people crashing into the spun cars (saving money and time), and this will put on a better show which I think is the most important thing.
Now "Mother nature" lets warm Wisconsin up and lets go racing!!!!!
Brian
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I agree, pretty excited to run this tire and see how the car runs.
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Thank You Justin and Brian!
Seriously, how much wider is the new tire? Sorry, I'm a pavement guy; So perhaps I am ignorant on this issue. I will research it further if the difference is significant enough to warrent the time.
Brian,
I'm with you on the warmer weather!!!! Unfortunately, it's not just Wisconson. Things are getting better here in Montana. Been windy as hell!!! Still some forcasts for snow over the weekend. Fortunately, I don't think it will last long.
Steve
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I take offense to that Brian...I quite enjoyed crashing into people that spun in front of me last year, thats why I kept doing it over and over...
;D
Its going to snow this weekend...ol' Mother Nature isn't going to help us out. You going to Iowa at all before we start up here?
Trial and error will be some of the fun of learning the new tire and how the car can perform with it.
If we don't get any practice time in, the opener could be interesting!
I think the biggest concern of the new tire is going to be cutting them down. I have 4 like new BFG's that got snagged on people's running boards and ripped chunks out of the sidewall, If that happens with the AR's, they'll be junk due to the much thinner sidewall, where the BFG's are still useable as left side spares.
We should all police ourselves on making sure the running boards are even with the fenders and taped. I still remember in '08 when Jimbo took a hammer and duct tape over to Robert Lever's pit and "fixed" his running boards for him :D :D :D
My $.02
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Jim,
You and Vern got quite" friendly" last year....
Come to think of it; There must have been a lot of drivers "Doing their nails" out there on the track.
;D
Steve
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Oh i agree there. we are going to cut some tires down, they are thin compared to the bfg. but i will take the risk. im glad we have a dirt tire finally. i dont care if its not as soft as some people want or there not grooved like they want them to be, or whatever there case may be. we are all going to put on a good show with having these tires. why? because we finally have a dirt tire. everyone should be excited to get these things. look how long they have ran those bfg tires. its time for a change and we all get to take part in it. This is for the better of the Legends racing on dirt. it will get more people interested in them. we are going to be faster and people like speed. I dont care that its going to make the guy not doing so hot better now then he was before with the old tires, because now he isnt going to spinout 5 times a race and he is going to want to continue to come back every week because he is getting better. that keeps car counts up. So i will shut up, but im happy 600 finally gave in and got a dirt tire. im done with those radials.... THIS IS DIRT NOT ASPHALT!
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Steve,
1. Tires are more expensive. We used to buy two at $92 each, right sides only each year. Now the new dirt tire warrants buying at a minimum of 4 tires and probably 6-8 tires to allow for stagger adjustments.
2. We ran for many years with an inner tube in RR which costs less than $10. Now we probably will have to buy the beadlock just to keep the tire on due to the thin construction of the new tire sidewalls.
3. Many racers were complaining recently how long it took to get these tires.
4. I agree, mounting remains to be seen.
5. Earlier post mentioned there is a very good possibility of rule changes coming for fender mounting.
6. It is quite obvious the new tire/wheel combo will not meet current weight rules.
7. Previous post mentioned tires are 8" wide rather than 7" wide by someone who has these tires and car will not fit thru width gauge.
8. Some changes may be needed to use the new tires.
9. I agree - We will have to hear back from those that have the new tires on any interference with steering or headers. May or may not a hard fix though.
10. Yes, we will be running BFG's as our budget does not allow us the option of purchasing a new set of AR's. We've run our Legends car for approx. 10 years with BFG's with no issues. If the AR's prove to be a great advantage, I guess we will move on.
I know the rules are what they are. Just do not like them be forced upon us with little if any voice in the situation.
Just my opinion!
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I say lets get out there and run em!! All this would of should of stuff. This is what we got so eather make them work or run your BFG. now there about 10lb lighter, very nice when it come to stager and if they dont work with the big side to the right put em to the left side, we all just have to work with them. Now me being the new guy to dirt and stuff, I got mine mounted ( it takes a bead blaster to seat them) put them on and there not bad for getting back to your base line. I'm looking forward to running em. Now what psi to run them at is a nother story.