Engine performance vs. Engine Damage

[knuclebuster]

Hey Guys,
  I would like to hear some opinions and or advice about what you think Im doing to my engine by running it to the rev limit set by my stock black box.  I am running a 3.58 gear in forth gear.  I am getting on the rev limiter within a few seconds of getting off the throttle,to make my turn in to the corner, on both the front and back stretch of a 3/8 mile track.  Will this damage the engine?  One of the local racers has suggested that I change to the Red box to get a higher rev and or also change to a 3.42 gear, what has been your experience.   If I run in 5th gear the car doesnt seem to have the power that it does running in 4th gear.

  I have not started racing yet, just running on the 'test and tune' nights.  There is usually one to four cars out there with me at any given time, which allows me to run pretty much all out.  Normally, I get to run about 50+ laps, in groups of 10 to 12 laps per night.  I am changing my about every two weeks.

  What is should my biggest concern be?  Damage to the engine or to the electronics?  Should I make any changes?  Any opinions would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Todd
aka Knuclebuster

[Sagermotorsports]

Knucklebuster,

    I run a 3:58 gear in fourth and run a red box ignition. The nature of racing is hard on these engines but I have been told by numerous people that running the engine to 10,500 is normal and you will notice that the top cars at your track will all be hitting between 10,200 and 10,500 that is partially the reason that these engines need to be refreshed every 30 races. You will never be able to keep up with the pack running in 5th gear . If you want to run 5th gear you would want to go to a 4:10 which in 5th is right between a 3:42 and 3:58 in fourth.  Anyway you look at it you will need to get and keep those r's up they will help you decel into the corner and will get you out quicker. Remember you need to carry that momemtum into , thru and out of the corner. Changing your oil every two weeks is a good practice,but instead change it every 60 laps. Count your laps ALL of them and change it every 60

Brett

[Racinjj]

I would suggest changing rear gears to the 3.42, you want to peak at 10,000 to 10,200 rpm.  Runnning on the rev limiter for extended periods of time like you are can damage your engine. 

[Sagermotorsports]

 If you can get to 10,200 that would be perfect but the black box I believe is limited at 9,600. I think the best way to go is with a redbox and then if you are hitting at 10,500 then back the gears to a 3:42 that should at least give you a chance out there

Brett

[knuclebuster]

Thanks Brett and Jeff for the replies.  Im not sure which way to go.  I dont quite understand rear end gear selection fully to begin with.  I ve read a few other posts about gears and the one that has the chart listed, but Im still not exactly sure how to pick the correct gear. 

 About the rev limit on the black box......does anyone know for sure what the revs are set at?

KB

[JGRacing]

Do you have the normal black box, or the black box with the vacuum tube tied to a second small box that it wired to the ignition box?  They have different rev limits. 

[RickyBobby]

Since you are on the rev limiter in practice you will likely be on it more in the race.  Here is the link to the gear chart from 600 http://www.600racing.com/inex_info/gear_charts/516999.html

What you want to look at is the final drive number.  Since you are on the rev limiter in 4th with the 3.58 it gives you a final drive of 4.62 you want to look for the next tallest ratio.  That would be the the 4.10 in 5th at a final drive of 4.57.  Since the 3.42 is a more popular gear and used at more tracks that would be the next ratio in 4th at 4.42.

[Sagermotorsports]

I am not sure either what black box you have,but last year I ran the standard black box ( no vacuum ) with 3:42 gears on a 3/8 oval and I was slapped around the track every race    I did not have a prayer of keeping up with the other drivers. Even drivers who ran 3:42 with a red box were faster out of the corners and down the straight away. It was the rev limiter on the black boxes. But a good friend and a very long time racer told me that it would be a good idea to be a little slower and get used to the car and track and my style of driving before I got parts to make me faster. Just practice your style and you will get faster all by yourself. I shaved 2.5 seconds off my time by the end of the year and did not buy a single new part. But of course it is up to you. Do what you feel you are comfortable with

Brett

[Racinjj]

You cant compare gear ratios based just on advertised track size.  You have to gear to your specific track, it sounds to me that the 3.42 would be the way to go for your track.  What does your tack read at the rev limit?

[justfreaky]

Good advice Brett.
From what I understand, he is hitting the rev limiter at the end of the straights just before lifting for the corners.
I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. This has all been in practice, as he is not quite comfortable with racing yet.

KB,
IF you have the vacuum operated box, you should be able to adjust the vacuum a bit to compensate. ? (just thinking out loud)
I DO think that a change to the red box would benefit you. But, as Brett pointed out, maybe spending money to go faster is not the best way to go at this point. Your Call.
A gear change might be helpful. I know you are running with what came with the car when you bought it. What are the other guys running? 3.42? If so, you might want to do a little shopping.

Steve

[bback58]

Two of the tracks I run are supposedly a 3/8 mile, larger than Cedar Lake which is supposed to be 3/8 too.  I have been running .358 gears for 3 years.  Usually I just hit the rev limiter (black box) when I am about to let off for the turn.  I haven't had any troubles.  If you go to the red box, be prepared to have them act up on you.  I think the reliability of them sucks and don't plan to go to one.  If you go to a red box, remember you will get more RPM's and will twist that engine a little harder.  Just my 2¢ worth.

[JGRacing]

The black box with the seperate vacuum box goes up to 10500 if I remember correctly which is about what the red box is.  If you can find one of these, you can get the higher RPM's without having to get the new rotor, coils, etc. you would need for a red box.   

[knuclebuster]

WOW!!!!!!!   Thanks for the big response guys!!!  Thats what I love about this forum, everyones opinions is very helpful.  I feel that I need to go to the track this week, weather permitting, and concentrate exactly where Im getting on the chip and see what my tach is reading.  At this point as Steve pointed out, I have not entered a full out race, im just going to the test and tune nights,getting seat time.  Only last Thursday night did my setup give me the ability to drive the car with enough speed to actually get on the chip.  I'll take everything that you guys are telling me and try to get a better feel for where i am.

My black box does not have a vacuum tube on it.  So my rev limit is what it is.  As I have shared with you guys, racing is new to me.  The car  and the track are coming to me every week that I go out.  Please keep sharing your insight with me.  I certainly need more driving time to improve my times.  Im finding out every week that my mistakes from being a novice driver is effecting my overall performance more than the limitations of the car itself.  I will update yall with more detail of what im encountering after this weekend if the track is not closed due to rain, which is a high probability as it stands now.

Thanks again for all the responses to my questions.

Todd

[VMS Motorsports]

Im not a front runner, just a mid pack guy, so my opinion doesnt carry much weight,  but here's my 2 cents about the red -vs- black box...
Would you rather have something made by Yamaha and designed specifically for the engine your using, or something made for 600 by who knows what company?

[Racinjj]

The red box is made by Dynatech, I used their boxes on our mini indy cars.  They make really good stuff so I will never say a bad thing about them.  I have a red box and have never touched the rev limiter, these motors dont make power that high and if you dont believe get your motor dynoed.
Thats an interesting thought Jim but I see it a little different, would you rather have a stock ignition box or something made for racing?  I understand what you are saying and I have heard of red box issues.  I dont think it really matters which one you have as long as you have the vacuum line black box so you are on equal ground with the rev limit.  I am guessing 600 went to the red box because Yamaha wasnt making the stock boxes anymore.

Hitting the rev limit isnt a big deal, I just got the impression that you were riding on it for a couple seconds, thats not good.  Running on the rev limit tends to shake your engine to pieces.  I had found a good explination for it but cant seem to find it.