LegendsRacer - Legends & Bandolero Racing Forum
LEGENDS => General => Topic started by: knoxracing on March 03, 2013, 12:10:06 pm
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The 2012 rule book will be used until the changeover date is posted on USLC web site
All competitors
1)Snell 2005 rating or newer is required in all helmets. The SA 2000 rating will no longer be permitted.
2)All suspension and ballast bolts shall be identifiable as to grade.
Legend Cars
1)Weight rule, 1300 lb with driver and a minumum of 640lbs right side weight. Percentages will no longer be used for the weight requirements by Inex.
2)All Legend Car engines with clear plastic, green old style or blue old style seals must be sent in to US Legends Engine shop for inspection and resealing prior to 7/1/2013.
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Will the rear percentage rule still be there, or is that gone as well with removing all the percentages from the rules?
Thanks
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Rules 1 O.K. The engine rule--SCREW THEM!! We have an old motor in our car that runs great,no smoke or anything else. We have 1 motor we are sending in next month that has 15 races and the rings are shot!! Are they going to pay for my shipping,gaskets etc??? I know for a fact this motor is not cheated as it came from Vegas in a house car we bought! The car car was used in a driver school and not run all that much in actual races. This has been our best motor!! Are they going to "force" us to do this???? Well I gues we will have a car for sale soon. Time to get the latemodel going!!!
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Slack,
I have had a tech lic. for years, I try not to get involved in tech issues unless I am put in a situation that requires it (Inex requests or there is an issue I am asked to get involved in). I received this letter yesterday with my tech lic.. I too have questions regarding the percentages, i will talk to Scott Monday and clarify these rule changes. I am not real sure why we are changing but I will find out.
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So let me get this right I have to send my motor that has blue seals and 3 races on it to 600 bye 7/1/2013 . The season starts this month and ends in October and I only have one motor. So I pay shipping parts and let me guess labor even though the motor only has 3 races on it and then after the season ends I have to send it to them again. Why would they not say bye 2014 all seals must be changed and engines inspected .
This sucks cody
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"Joke". I am just forwarding the tech letter I received. My OPINION on the seals is this, those that chose to go behind the seals have created this situation. everyone that CHOSE to run a sealed motor had the same rule book to follow, those that thought they were going to get away with it knew they were breaking an inex rule and now the rest of us will be affected by there actions. Do I think there are alot of lEGAL older sealed motors out there that are legal, I sure do. I also know of motors with old seals that seem to run upfront at local tracks year after year and they have 5 year old seals. These same guys show up in the spring drive around half throttle for three practice sessions and then run the car hard. they compete with fresh motors, ITS OBVIOUS they were breaking in a motor with the same seal they did the same thing last year. These are the guys that are to blame for this rule, not Inex. I personally thought the local techs were going to cut seals, send them in and the seal would be inspected. A temp seal was to be installed while the seals from the motor were being inspected. this still could be the way this goes. I will talk to USLC regarding this also. I know and they know it is unreallistic for everyone to send motors to them to have a seal changed.
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Dennis,
I COMPLETELY understand why you would want to stay out of tech issues, was just wondering if you knew about theat rule as well.
Again, thanks for the heads up, remember here guys, let's not shoot the messenger, he's just delivering news. Without him posting this, we all would probably never hear about this for a long while....
Thanks again and let me know if you do find out about the percentages.
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The wording of the letter is a little confusing to me, werent there silver barrel style seals also? It says these motors must be sent toUS Legends Engine shop fop inspection and resealing. Prior to 7/1/2013. i am also not real sure how long exactly the current seal has been around?
All US Legend Car engines with clear plastic seals, green(old style) seals or blue (old style seals) must be sent to in to the US Legends Engine shop for inspection & re-sealing prior to 7/1/2013
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I know that you are doing us a favor telling us and my comment was not to you it was what I was feeling. I have been around racing all my life and I know people cheat but this puts me in a real hard spot I hope they find a different way of doing this.
Thanks cody
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I agree guys that this is a hard line that will effect folks that have done nothing wrong, but because a few pushed the envelope everyone will be part of the process. I ALSO think that this could change or another method could take place if racers call and discuss there situation with Inex. That is my suggestion, call and discuss oyur situation directly with USLC.
If you have a problem with a rebuild I suggest you call Chad in the engine shop DIRECTLY and discuss your problem with him. Chad is a good guy and he wants the motors leaving the engine shop to be of quality.
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Dennis,
First of all, as others said, Dennis thanks for keeping us all posted on the rule changes. It is very much appreciated. I understand why USLC is putting engine sealing rule in place as you stated above, but someone from USLC needs to take a look at the big picture. I know several of the cars in our area including the dirt car I am scheduled to drive has a perfectly good blue sealed engine that has never been messed with. Now we're supposed to send it in by 7/1/2013 to have it recertified??? That's a bunch of balogna. This rule change should have been in place early last fall in order for all to get their engines properly certified or the date needs to be change to late fall of 2013. Many of us do not have or can afford a spare engine so this rule could potentially park cars for few weeks waiting to get their engines back. Also, for those who may have just purchased a less costly older car to get into this sport now have to send their engines out too. NOT a good way to grow the sport. And if they really are serious, they need to get an engine depot somewhere in the Midwest to reduce the cost of shipping to either East or West coast. Do I hear Dennis Know Legends Racing Engines... :) Please let us know what you find out regarding the date. Sounds like we need to band together and send emails to John and Scott at USLC to least change the date until later this year.
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I agree! The timing is not right! One thing I have pushed to the top folks at SMI is the fact that they have to see past the end of the hood, in other words they need to look beyond Charlotte and see the big picture as those outside Charlotte make up the majority of there customer base and we do matter! Send those mails and make those calls guys, we can push to change this or atleast chenge the method to re-seal these motors. If they want to re-seal, fine, but lets do it the right way and not make the innocent sealed owner spend money to do it.
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I ALSO think that this could change or another method could take place if racers call and discuss there situation with Inex. That is my suggestion, call and discuss oyur situation directly with USLC.
If you have a problem with a rebuild I suggest you call Chad in the engine shop DIRECTLY and discuss your problem with him. Chad is a good guy and he wants the motors leaving the engine shop to be of quality.
Folks, that there is good advise. Call'um and/or email'um. They can't ignore everyone, they're not that dumb.
Robert
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So the weight rule.. Car has to weigh a Minimum of 1300# with a Minimum Right side weight of 640# So if my Math is Correct we can only get 50.7% Left at 1300# did I read that rule correct of no?
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I agree and your math is right! I WILL make calls tomorrow to verify whats up.. It does not address the rear rule either. I will find out ASAP!!!!!
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Thank you Dennis we all appreciate what you do!
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Thanks for the update.
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The INEX tech guy was down at the Concord Speedway open practice yesterday walking around looking at seals. He told us about the seal rule change but could not tell us what it would cost to have my engine inspected. All he could tell us was that it would not be free. I think it is BS that they put out such a mandate but can't tell anybody what the minimum cost will be assuming everything is legal with the engine. I really feel for you guys that have to ship your engine down here just to get inspected. I am lucky that I only live an hour away so I can run mine down there and maybe watch the head be pulled off in person. Maybe you guys will get lucky and the rule will not be enforced at the tracks you run at weekly. Unfortunately Concord is where a lot of the Summer Shootout cars run during the Spring/Fall and the 2nd closest track to USLC so we have a big time INEX presence.
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Dennis, what is driving this right side weight rule? What was viewed as wrong with the rule being a percentage?
MT
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this is total bull sh*t... seal is a seal... we have a blue seal motor that we use' it runs good going to run it til it dies...shipping and recertification will be over $600.. why can not the tech people do this locally? i never new there was a rear weight rule?
joe
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I am waiting on the clarification on the seals.
The weight rule is what it says, 640 lbs minimum with the driver, right side. NO MORE PERCENTAGES. There is no rear rule anymore. I have not sat and played with the numbers, I am told this is to try and remove the advantages the 100 pound driver has over the 200 lb driver. Passing the info on!
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Last clarification on the weight rule!
There will NO longer be a minimum weight for a Legend Car. REMEMBER this will not take effect until Inex implements the rule. My guess is they are waiting on feedback from the changes they have put out there!
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Dennis, I appreciate you help in gettings this info out there. I think its a bit obsurd that they are changing the rules so close to the racing season. For us in the northeast, its a month away.
Its times like this where Im glad to have an open motor but feel badly for my friends that dont. My friend has a blue seal on his motor. Is there an "old" blue seal as oposed to a new style? Just trying to understand the wording.
Although the weight rule helps a 200+ driver like myself (I think), the rule change should have been made last year IMO, if at all. To many have put the work into their cars already.
Thanks,
Eric
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Heres some math assuming you hold the 640 right side weight constant:
660/1300 = 50.77% LSW
670/1310 = 51.15% LSW
680/1320 = 51.52% LSW
690/1330 = 51.88% LSW
700/1340 = 52.24% LSW
710/1350 = 52.59% LSW
MT
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Therein is the problem...
INEX has always been slow to release rule changes, or even have rules in place before the season starts (for most folks).
Memos, letters, rumors, etc... are usually kicked around on the Legends Car sites long before they (INEX) actually post their rulebook or rule changes.
I don't think it is fair to the majority of Legends racers.... But we (as a whole) don't make the rules. :-\
As always, contact INEX. Let them know what you think.
Steve
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I agree that it is to close to season starting for rule changes, and I disagree with the 640 rule. I think it will make the car harder to drive for everyone and even the heavier will have to add weight to the right also.
JMO
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Not firing on all cylinders here lately, but, NO minimum weight?
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Dennis,
Come on. You know the problem with the seals is not racers pushing the envelope. If USLC would build engines that lasted 30-40 races like Curt, Larry, Ken and Hank do, no one would be going behind the seals. There were about 1000 racers last year in Legends. You know as fact, that certain engine builders have admitted to doing over 100 sealed engines last year. If Ken, Hank, Curt and Larry all did that many, that means 40% of engines are "illegally built"
The "fix" is not to check seals. The real fix is to BUILD GOOD ENGINES. People spend $5000 on an engine, they expect they last more than 10 races. If USLC would build a good engine, all the illegal seals would go away.
And for GE to tell racers (as happened in FL) that just bought a new engine, that blow by is "normal" and that they need to have a recirculating catch can, is ridiculous. I have a 1200 with 40+ races on it and no blow by. NO WAY should a NEW engine blow so much oil you need to recirculate it to the fill cap.
Not mad at you Dennis, but please stop making this issue about the racers. It is about USLC and USLC only.
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No minimum weight is correct. the way I see it, the lighter guys under about 150lbs will be running a lower left side percentage than they are now. If the total weight is 1340 or better you will be at 52% left and 643 right side weight. I am not sure i like the no minimum rule, as a 100lb driver have a super light car and lead the hell out of the bottom, even though he will have to lead the right side to achieve 640. He is still bottom heavy. the rule will help drivers over about 165 lbs I would say.
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Maybe I'm missing something but what is all the talk about seals? I went back and don't see anything about seals. Can someone please tell me what the new rule is? Thanks
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As and old, fat guy, you think I would be happy about this, but I'm not. The kids will have a lot of lead real low on the car while my big old body will be flopping around up high.
Oh well, such is life....
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BACKSTRETCH, I am not sure why you are targetting me as part of the problem or saying that I am accusing anyone of anything. I am passing the information contained in a letter with my tech lic. on to the racers here. We are having a very good discussion regarding USLC rule changes. I am encouraging racers here that far may be far from Charlotte to make calls and send e-mails so the method of changing these seals might be changed. if USLC wnats to do this, they will do it, but they need to here from racers and how it will effect them and maybe they will come up with a different plan. If motors were rebuilt by others than USLC they may have an issue, I can not change that either. It is USLC's game, there rule book and there engine program. I am not going into all the politics of the program, it has ruined other sites and I really want to stick with getting the info out and trying to help racers deal with USLC anyway I can. Yes I am a dealer, yes I guess you could say I work for or am associated with USLC. Does this mean I agree with everything or I think everything is peachy, no it does not. If I try to help people deal with USLC, I help with pricing and pass the info that I receive onto those out there its a good thing. I just want to clarify my position on this site, thanks!
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Scott,
Read Dennis's first post. Sounds like USLC wants sealed engines to be sent in for a seal check.
I've not seen anything posted the USLC site. Dennis is passing on info that he has received.
??? ??? ???
Steve
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I'm going off my diet ;D
(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/forum/smileyvault-popcorn.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)
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I'm kind of slow sooooo let me get this right. They think that they are going to get everyone with a sealed motor that has one of these seals to ship there motor in and get the other seal put on? Maybe its just me but I think that someone up at USLC has fallen and bumped their head. Most people don't have enough money to rebuild let alone just spend money because they want you to have a new seal. I have to agree with backstretch, the real problem is two things. USLC let the whole motor program get away from them and they don't don't produce a quality product. They know that and so do the racers. I saw what the put out down at the Nationals. I have a sealed motor that I use for national events but I will go back with an open motor now. I know guys that go around seals but don't cheat the motors up. The reason they do it is they can't afford to have a motor go boom after a couple of races. That is just my opinion.
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Scott why do you switch back and forth from 1200 to 1250 for National events?
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An easy way to fix this whole deal would be to get rid of the seals all together and just tech the engines like the old days. I don't see 600 doing this, mostly because they know they'd be losing a lot of money on rebuilds. However, in my opinion if they have enough faith in their engine dept to put out a good reliable product, they'd still have plenty of business. Just my .02!
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Because it is easier to get through tech with a sealed motor at a National event. Plus are local events are not as tough of compation as National events and if something happens to my open motor my builder is only 3 minutes away and can turn my motor around in a couple of days. Also the cost is about $1200-$1800 for a GOOD rebuild. Other than cost, turn around and reliability I guess I would run a sealed motor all the time. I know that the 1250 is faster but I also have to race with my pocket book. I also heard with my own ears down in Florida a dealer talking about how he gave the tech guys a couple of hundred dollars to let his cars get through. He was saying this like he was proud of it. I have lost a lot of faith in the system right now. I know are local track let guys have a free pass and it gets discouraging. When the tech guy works at the dealer shop guess who doesn't get caught for anything. I don't have the answers for the motor problem but I do know that if they don't get a handle on it it is going to run a bunch of people off. Again Just an Opinion.
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LMAO, the tech guys in Florida? Scott Reinhardt taking a couple hundred to lose a career. Seriously? I will forward this to the tech dept and they can get to the bottom of it. This is a perfect example of why people have a negative perception of USLC. If you get full rebuilds for $1200 to $1800 I will send a couple of 1200's over. I try to stay on the fence, but sometimes you just have to call it what it is, B>S>! ALOT of legend racers race on a shoe string, they race on a small budget because they CAN. They CAN race a Legend, they could not race anyother car with so many places and venues and with a rule book that is pretty much followed all over and at every venue. The downfall is the budget, we all have to stretch every dollar, you never know when you will get caught up in something on the track, you need another set of tires, you want better brakes, you want those light wheels everyone else is running, etc etc. That motor goes 40 races between rebuilds, it has been rebuilt 4 times and BOOM it GRENADES. Is this the builders fault? When I am at USLC and I walk through the area whaere the rebuild are stored prior to rebuild it amazes me to see the nasty, old abused motors waiting for the miracle rebuild. Did i see a fresh rebuild in Florida blowing oil, yes I did. Did they put a catch and return system on it? Yes they did. Should they have to do this? NO. What else are going to do at the track, you are there for a weak, you cant tear it down there and rebuild it. Again, should there have been a problem, NO. Were there ANYOTHER BUILDERS THERE? USLC looked at the problem at the track, made the best decision at the time and I am sure will fix the issue. There was a motor three stalls down from me that was sealed and WAS NOT A USLC motor, it blew up big time. Four spots the other way, two blown engines that WERE NOT USLC engines, huge holes in the cases. Where were these builders? I am sorry for the rant, but BS is BS, paying the tech at Auburndale, seriously!
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Maybe 600 needs to allow free shipping on all of these motors that have to be sent back. haha.(. yeah right..) If there going to make people send in there motors for seals. then they need to make every car have a sealed motor.
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Maybe i am the only one that has noticed since this group at 600 took over led by Hawk they have been nickle and diming us to no end.
as far as having the seals redone that is the end for us, i have two bando motors and two sealed legend motors that would have to go to 600. i'm getting a little tired of paying for the cheaters that have nothing done to them. If you look at the motors that were caught running durring the winter heat at charlotte, they were all pretty high in regular season points, but then again i'm sure they only used cheated motors at the winter heat.
We were on the fence, i have to thank them for pushing us over.
rob
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OWE ,every motor? I am suggesting that tech officials pump the motors, remove the seals, send the seals, motor number and compression report to USLC for inspection. The tech would install new seals right then and there. If USLC has an issue with the seal, they can contact the car owner and take it from there.
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Rob, I agree with you! Guys that are legal should not have to spend a DIME to a motor resealed. Give this a little time to work its self out and I believe there will be changes in this policy before it is ever implemented into play. I will say that IF they are going to have a selaed program, they HAVE to get it under control. No ifs ands or buts. BUT NOT at the expense of legal engine owners that followed the rule!
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Just get rid of the seals altogether! As long as there are seals, someone will figure out how to get behind them!
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Dennis,
Do you really think that it is a good idea to let seals go out to tech guys? Isn't this what happened last time with seals? They (USLC) lost control over seals and every body I knew had some. They were even selling them on several web-sites. I'm not trying to be a Debbie downer but I did here him say that he pay a couple of hundred dollars to get his cars through. I'm positive it wasn't paid to Scott. I do know as long as we race anything there will be people who cheat. I do think that a 1250 motorcycle engine that cast $5200 or what ever the cost is now is WAY to much. You can buy a create late-model motor cheaper than that. Lets face it there isn't any high tech stuff going on with a 1980's motorcycle motor. The other fact is that they were having problems with reliability. We all knew it and so did they. Do they have it fixed? I don't know but most people have a bad taste in there mouth with USLC motor shop. Do I? Nope. I haven't really dealt with them that much either. My other question is why didn't the put new seals on down at the Winter Nationals? They had a bunch of cars there that they could have done then. I'm not going to worry about it until they come up with a solid plan. I just hope they think it through. I'm sure they will.
PS. It was nice to meet you down in Florida. Maybe we can get out your way someday and race with you guys.
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Whatever the method, fix it and do not expect the guys with legal shit to pay the bill, good tech and staying on top of this would have prevented all this! If we are staying sealed then get it going and inspect these motors with thorough tech on a consistant bassis.
If we all sat down had a beer or two, I BET we are all on pretty much the same page wanting the same end result!
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I agree.... What will stop this process from starting all over again..... Pull the old seals, get it resealed, then they return to the racer. The racer can do the exact same thing as before, remove the seals , rebuild, then put it back together.... To me they are band-aiding the real problem, how easy it is to get behind the seals.
What is to say next year at this same time the same exact problem won't be back.
They are trying to get rid of the illegal motors, I get that... But they are doing nothing to prevent it from happening again in the future. The only true way to prevent it would be to do tech at the track on the sealed motors, but at that point there would be no point in having seals at all.....
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You know Scott I am not saying its impossible to have paid techs. Jim is a pretty straight up guy as he is a pretty good tech. They did remove quite a few seals and found two or three tampered seals. Again after reading your last post, we too agree on alot. AND YES my idea of tech with seals could be a problem if they are not careful, but it does not have to be a problem. Last time the problem grew as sealed builders were given handfuls of seals with little tracking. A builder out of Vegas (no names, he built a hell of a motor- best we have ever had altthough 50% blew up, lol) was reasponsible for the e-bay sale, that was stopped and shortly after the seal type changed. rather we seal them all or unseal them all, it comes down to trained tech officials with the proper tools to do the proper job! I try to look at the program USLC has chosen to go with, I can not change it. If this is what we are doing, then lets do it right and thoroughly!
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i am begining to think this is uslc's way of testing the waters before setting it in stone, like a political survey..put the info out there secretly and judge the reaction....
joe
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Were the seals that were tampered with at the winter nationals the old style seals or the new style (purple) seals.....
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Dennis knox
you sure spend alot of time defending 600's motor shop. if 600 spent the same time and effort on qaulity control that you spend defending them we would not be having this conversation!!!
I see the fix for this one of two ways either 600 makes all motors sealed and techs the seals with a iron fist or no seals and use the rule book to control it.
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And if it wernt for Dennis, none of us would be having this conversation. I mean that in a good way. Thank you sir for keeping us informed. Someone has too.
Has anyone heard back from Inex regarding these changes?
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The one thing that is for sure, these topics bring ALL KINDS of new folks to this site, wonder where they come from and who refers them? I am glad as long as we keep it civil and we all understand that none of us make any of the decisions at USLC.
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I received a personal call from John Hagen. He was a little mad that this topic got released as it wasn't supposed to be made public till they discussed it more. I stated my concerns and he understood fully. He stated that the racer would be responsible for any gaskets and the return shipping only. He also stated that they are looking at other options too. Stated that they are looking at sending tech officials to larger events to look at seals and to replace them. They are doing this to even out the playing field, which I agreed with. They are considering all options and were having a meeting today regarding seals.
So I guess we will wait and see what happens in the next few weeks when he publicly announces the details.
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i do not understand why they would have to take anything off.. remove valve cover check cams.. remove clutch cover check rods..use a bore scope check pistons...compression gauge to check compression.. any tech guy could do it..reseal and be done..
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A little history for all you new folks. Back in Late 2006/early 2007, 600 Racing (now USLC) found out they had an issue with cheated up sealed motors. This was prior to the program being in house. The builder of the cheated up engine? GE Chapman... 600 Racing fired GE, as they should have. Then, someone decided that they should bring the program in house. In order to do that, they needed a proven engine builder. Who would that be? None of the big name builders would take the job. Curt, Larry, Ken, etc... all were making good money building sealed motors, as well as a ton of 1200 motors. Why would they want to give that up to go work for 600? So 600 had this great idea, but no one to run it. Hey, wait a minute. GE is available, remember, he was fired for cheating. So.... GE became the head engine builder.
Wow, great idea.... Let's put the biggest cheater in legends, in charge of the sealed engine program. Do you really wonder why things are what they are now?
And as far a s quality, there are many more than 1 engine in florida that are blowing absurd amounts of oil. Do the engine guys at USLC even know that you need to set the ring gap, and that it isn't just throw a new set of rings in and call it good?
I would LOVE to see the USLC engine program succeed, but not a the cost of the competitors. fix the PROBLEM! and the problem is QUALITY. If the engines coming from USLC lasted as long as engines from Larry, Curt, Ken, Doug, and Hank, no one would risk getting caught illegal. They would happily pay for a rebuild from USLC and be done. But how many times can you blame the competitor for "too much oil" or "too little oil" or any number of excuses that USLC gives.
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Your History is only half correct and I WILL NOT GO INTO THAT HERE ON THIS SITE!!!!! YOU ARE 50% CORRECT! There is the REST OF THE STORY .
You honestly think that all the motors built by the builders during the sealed years that had many builders were legal????? Not to be rude but thats funny. I saw so much crap go on it was crazy, it was way more out of control then what is going on today. I will say the motors caught for the most part have been pretty close to legal, these were ALL taken at BIG events, racers knew not to show with big motors at these venues. I also know FIRST hand of multiple 1349 motors running in 2012. The majority of the motors with illegal components have not been checked and thats what is coming. USLC knows that once you get away from Charlotte there are alot of big motors. This is NOT a rumor, I have seen invoices for $6000 to $7000.00 for 1349 complete rebuilds, yes rebuilds. I will not go into personal history on anyone, again this site is not to discredit anyone or sling mud. I have had many disagreements with a couple builders over the sealed program, they are still good engine builders and they are in business to make money, no big deal. We disagree, but that does not make them bad people or bad engine builders. Anyone can call me anytime!
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backstretchwall,
I have no idea who you are but your spot on. I was here for it all. The only thing that no can tell me is WHY it cost so much for a 1980"s motor cycle engine. It's not like there is a ton of technology in these motors. Maybe Yamaha is holding us hostage with the prices. I know that I have a guy locally that can rebuild a 1200 for $1200 to $1800 if there isn't a lot of machine work involved and they last for 40 races. I do know the reason that they cut the 1200 motor back to 165 psi is because you could make a 1200 run with a 1250. So it makes me want to run a 1200 that has some compression and take my chances right now.
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you guys werent here in late 2000 when 600 racing hinted at making everybody purchase a sealed engine to continue racing. So at the end of the day, what good comes of this? Is us legends going to suspend 100's of racers who buy parts? I know car counts are higher than ever (insert sarcasm) so apparently running off paying customers is a solid business model.
i've been an employee of us legends in two different facets, one as independent contractor building engines, and the other as running the parts and distribution here in texas. It kills me to see this program so mismanaged, as i've been invovled since late 96. It all stems from a car that was HALF engineered, and when i say that, i mean that the cars were developed 20 years ago and nobody ever took the time to see what sort of problems arise with an oiling system when you put a motorcycle engine in a car sideways. Now, there are lots of engine builders i don't care for, but the fact that these engines blow the sides out of them is not magic, nor is it ANY of the engine builders faults. With bad engineering, why on earth would you want your business to bear the brunt of all frustrations with an engine being used in a manner it was not engineered to operate........let the small shops like me handle the bad press, shrink the business back down, sell parts, as uslegends is the best place for me to buy fj/xj parts, and let that business make money again.
cut the seals off, put 25 lbs on the 1250, check bore, build a key to check cam lobes and be done with it.........problem solved. Sit back and collect money while order takers sell bearings, rings and timing chains....
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Grape,
That was a good post, it would once again come down to the lack of tech officials with proper training and proper tools. Thats really been the problem with every engine program we have had to date.
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Now, there are lots of engine builders i don't care for, but the fact that these engines blow the sides out of them is not magic, nor is it ANY of the engine builders faults.
I have to respectfully disagree with this part of your post.
When you illegally lighten a crank / rods / etc, failure is going to happen quicker than if you run legal stuff the way it was built by Yamaha.
There are guys spending $8000 on rebuilds, they are laid up without their motor for 2 months because the crank had to be sent "down south", and then they blow up 10-15 races later with a busted crank...thats not the fault of the builder?
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here's the deal, as long as we control the carb size, and the camshaft, and rev limit, the overall hp of the engine WILL NOT change with a displacement increase. What it WILL do, is get to that peak hp number quicker in the rev range. Bore checking is easy these days, and the old engine rules worked. The problem is greed, and greed kills all business. I'm so tired of seeing guys who love being lied to taken to the cleaners on "trick" engines, because, at the end of the day, he will figure out he paid for NOTHING and who is he going to call? You will never see a phone call to US Legends as follows "Hey, i paid Glenn Bopp $1500 to cheat up a bando engine for me, and he screwed me". Seals only keep honest people honest and this system is broken.
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Now, there are lots of engine builders i don't care for, but the fact that these engines blow the sides out of them is not magic, nor is it ANY of the engine builders faults.
I have to respectfully disagree with this part of your post.
When you illegally lighten a crank / rods / etc, failure is going to happen quicker than if you run legal stuff the way it was built by Yamaha.
There are guys spending $8000 on rebuilds, they are laid up without their motor for 2 months because the crank had to be sent "down south", and then they blow up 10-15 races later with a busted crank...thats not the fault of the builder?
these engines don't break rods from anything other than 0 oil pressure when the steering wheel is turned. If somebody is dumb enough to think that cutting those weights off that crankshaft will gain them anything, they get what they deserve.....because it doesn't add power, and at the end of the day you can take more rotating weight out of the clutch basket with aluminum floaters than falicon or ape can cut off the fj crank.
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how do they plumb the oil recovery system in ? from the breather to the can and where does the return go back to?
thanks joe
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From the breather to the can, out the bottom of the can to oil fill opening. There is a fitting available that replaces the screw cap. We run this system on all of our cars for several reasons.
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Point is you shouldn't need to do that.
How do you monitor your blow by? You dont, it just returns the oil to the engine. You have no idea if there is a problem.
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No thats not the point and that was not the question! The question was asked as to "what the catch and return system is" ? I explained the system. How do you monitor blow by should it happen, with a catch can or by how much oil has spewn all over the car or when the can overflows ? I could say the same to you, point is it should not happen. We run the catch and return for a few reasons, I will name a couple.
1)Safety fence in case you would develop an issue during a race, oil returns to the engine with out damaging the motor.
2)We can run a little more oil on those tracks that you are constantly turning left and the oil is slung to the side of the pan.
3)Ventilation and cooling, this releases ALOT of heat to the catch can and out the vent. The vent is located higher than the engine.
Point is, if you have a blow by problem you will know it, usually you will still push a little out the vented filter on top the can from the draft. The benefits of the return system GREATLY outway the risk (none).
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More US Legends engineering.....lets expect fluid to move forward in a tube while a car is accellerating. And to top it off, that tube is almost horizontal....... Proves that plumbers are smarter than most. Shaking my head
Youd be surprised how little oil comes out when you weld a bung to the cam cover near the center chain guide.....
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If for whatever reason you push oil out the vent into the can (top), your telling me the oil will not flow out the bottom of the can back into the engine when the can is a higher than the motor? Not to mention we are not going 200 mph and there are cautions during most events that would allow the oil to flow no matter the speed, and what about the additional venting? Shaking my head engine builder.
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PS, this system comes from one of your fellow builders, not USLC!
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Would be much easier to fix oil pressure problem after 20 years.... Have you ever seen "blowby" blow oil out on the dyno? Lol
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we had an open motor blow 2 quarts out last year on ten laps, very dangerous behind my car.. i think a can is good to have...
thanks guys .. the motor builder said not to waste my money these motors should not blow oil out unless there is a problem like in yours..
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we had an open motor blow 2 quarts out last year on ten laps, very dangerous behind my car.. i think a can is good to have...
thanks guys .. the motor builder said not to waste my money these motors should not blow oil out unless there is a problem like in yours..
Did anybody do a leak down to verify air was going past the rings?
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No thats not the point and that was not the question! The question was asked as to "what the catch and return system is" ? I explained the system. How do you monitor blow by should it happen, with a catch can or by how much oil has spewn all over the car or when the can overflows ? I could say the same to you, point is it should not happen. We run the catch and return for a few reasons, I will name a couple.
1)Safety fence in case you would develop an issue during a race, oil returns to the engine with out damaging the motor.
2)We can run a little more oil on those tracks that you are constantly turning left and the oil is slung to the side of the pan.
3)Ventilation and cooling, this releases ALOT of heat to the catch can and out the vent. The vent is located higher than the engine.
Point is, if you have a blow by problem you will know it, usually you will still push a little out the vented filter on top the can from the draft. The benefits of the return system GREATLY outway the risk (none).
Don't know why you're in a huff Dennis, I just said that blowby should not happen. Sure, there will be a little, but if you fill a quart size can in a 20-25 lap feature, you have a problem. My position was that you wont see that problem developing if the can self empties.
Also not a fan of running extra oil, but that's just my opinion.
I run a can, but dont drain it back into the engine, so yes, I open the petcock and check at the end of the night what, if any oil is in there.
Geez, we were getting along lately too ;D
Either way, I've sold more catch cans this off season than the last 4 years combined
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yes grape i did a leak down test 100 percent.. one of those weird things so i was told, the engine sleeves had 5 races on them, one sleeve got ripples on the inside.. i was told this was only seen once before and no clue on how it happened..smooth wavy ripples.... brought to two of my friends auto machinests they said the same thing thats really weird..
joe
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10-4, good to know
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Maybe it was said but that 640 lbs. is with the driver?
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Yes it is
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Any pictures of the catch can/ return bottle go?
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VMS, I am not in a huff. I just want accurate information passed on to those that read this. I am sure you have sold more catch cans as I see them on almost every motor at most events. OPEN AND SEALED, Why wouldnt you run a can? Why wouldnt you want the insurance of the oil returning to the engine? Its a $5000.00+ unit that lives on one thing OIL. I have been around for 14 years. I saw just as many blow oil then when we were all on open motors with multiple builders. It irritates the crap out of me when those that have issues with USLC on a business level feel they need to take blind jabs every chance they get, its wrong.
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Dennis, do you believe that uslc puts out just as good and reliable product as these builders that are getting behind the seal? Better yet, do you believe that uslc has faith in their program to produce as good and reliable products as these guys?
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I will leave this right here, as this is the first sealed engine ive taken apart in 4 years. Customer pays $5400 for a blitz 4 with pinned cam. It ran 4 nights before the sleeves sunk from bad machine work. When opened up, it had no pinned cam and 2 bent exhaust valves.... Seems it would have lasted longer straight from japan.....
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x199/grape09/2ADBBAFD-B056-4274-BF09-7839216BA547-2783-000002210E367378_zpsad00b64f.jpg)
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VMS, I am not in a huff. I just want accurate information passed on to those that read this. I am sure you have sold more catch cans as I see them on almost every motor at most events. OPEN AND SEALED, Why wouldnt you run a can? Why wouldnt you want the insurance of the oil returning to the engine? Its a $5000.00+ unit that lives on one thing OIL. I have been around for 14 years. I saw just as many blow oil then when we were all on open motors with multiple builders. It irritates the crap out of me when those that have issues with USLC on a business level feel they need to take blind jabs every chance they get, its wrong.
You need to get over yourself and re-read this damn thread Dennis.
I never came after you, USLC, or anyone else for their product or business.
I said that it should not be necessary to run a return line to the motor from the catch can!
If you want to do it, go nuts, but if you are filling the can and need to run the oil back to the motor, you have a problem. I run a can, and monitor if any oil accumulates.
It irritates the crap out of me when people who have been in the business 14 years and should know better try to justify massive blow by as a non issue.
It also irritates the crap out of me that someone who knows nothing of my business tries to act like he does, and takes blind jabs every chance he gets.
You always make things personal Dennis, I'll never understand that about you, I guess you like meaningless confrontation.
You have a problem with me or my business, you or USLC can buy me out.
They have all my sales numbers from 2012, contact Ashley or John.
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Chunk,
Based on the shear number of engines sold new and being rebuilt I do not believe USLC has no more issues with there motors than any builder. Please remember this is based on the number of motors done. I guess you could say percentage wise, there is no other shop putting out the amount of engines USLC does, not even close. Would I have said that two years ago, no. The rebuild cost is also less, based on numbers I have seen from SOME builders that are well known.
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VMS,
Drain the oil from your catch can you are full! Its no big deal. Seriously? Who cares if anyone runs a return line or not? " you sold more catch cans this year than anyother year".
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Grape, whats the engine number from that sealed engine?
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Ok Dennis, then I ask you, why not take the seals off? As long as there are seals people will figure out how to get behind them. A guy is way more likely to get caught with a 1350 that is unsealed than if it were sealed. The seals are a false sense of security and IMHO a way to ensure that uslc makes the money on rebuilds. If they had that much faith in their product, they wouldn't worry about people sending their engines somewhere else. A good majority of those that were dq'd were found to be within spec but had seals tampered with, correct? That says it all to me. Taking the seals off is the best fix I see.
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Where can I see a Picture of this oil setup and how much are they. I wouldnt mind having it for a backup.
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Not all motors were within spec., most were Please remember there have been several people come forward with illegal motors to be brought into spec, . The seals and motors taken have been at big events, USLC knows for a fact that the majority of the sealed engines with illegal components are not at these events, these are the motors they are going after.
Now as to answer your question, this is my opinion and I have said it before. If we had proper tech with the proper tools any motor program would work. The past programs would have worked, the current program would have worked. So in my opinion no matter the direction they go unless these motor are teched by trained tech guys with tools it wont matter. This ship us your motor and we will check it and return it, is a problem, it is fine if you are 100 miles from USLC, but the majority of these motors are not within 100 or even 200 miles. Goes back to trained techs with the ability and the trust to check these motors, cut the seals and reseal them, send the old seals and motor info to uSLC and let them take it from there. They have to fix the problem in the field before they implement new rules and or new procedures. Another interesting tid bit. Part of this re-seal deal is if you bring or send them a motor with "illegal components", they will make the motor legal at your expense and send it back to you, no penalty. I guess its like amnesty. The way I see it, they could have said hey look. we are stepping our tech up big time, if you have a motor and it needs brought into spec then send it to us and we will make that happen with no penalty. If you have an older sealed motor and you want it resealed fine send it in, otherwise our techs will check it in the field and if there is an issue USLC wil contact you. Sorry if this more than you asked!
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Cruzin.
I cannot get photos to load, it says file is too large. Grape and others have posted pictures. Can you send me your e-mail and i will mail you a picture of a car with the catch and return. If someone else wants to post it I will send it to them. Thanks.
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You know what is the saddest part about all of this is that this series was created by men who saw a need and filled it as a series of racing that could be affordable, by building a program where the car could be raced nation wide based on a rules package that was universal across the country.
I noticed last year for the 2012 rulebook, the story that has been in every other rulebook prior about the founding of legends car was not included. Why is it no longer included, I really don't know, but in my opinion is is seems to be the direction change of the new management which has a different vision of the founders.
For those of you who do not know, I have been involved in Legends racing since 1994, back when cars were delivered without oil coolers, you could get the bodies in many different gel coated colors. Back when we had steel spindles, open 1200 engines, two piece axles and some freedom of what we, as racers, wanted to use for other parts like wheels, air filters, engine parts and engine builders (either built in your garage or send it to a builder) as long as the fit within the rules book you were good. If you were found cheating the part(s) were confiscated and your were penalized.
So, over the years, I have seen many, many changes in the Legends car. The first major change happened when they went away from the Carrerra shock. The reasoning of this change was to keep the cost of racing this car to a minimum and also to have a propriety product. Carrerra would not make a proprietary product for 600.
Several things about the Carrerra shock was it was adjustable internally with a ramp systems. It was designed to have three adjustment levels. But it did not take long for the "racer" found out due to manufacturing tolerances that each shock could have as many as 27 different setting if the adjusting cam was not flat in the bottom of the shock. That combined with the valleys and peaks of the adjuster meant that you could have as many or more shock than a cup team did. I remember going to my first nationals in Charlotte in 1995 and seeing the "pro" guys with dozens of shocks hanging on racks in their trailers. We pitted next to a guy that was dyno tuning and adjusting shocks just for that track/event. Plus the oil could be changed in those shocks to change the characteristics as well.
So, that change was tolerable because it did two things, eliminated the need to have dozens of dyno tuned shocks for the Saturday night racers and gave 600 all of the monies for the product.
Then we had to go to aluminum spindles because of cheaters which was another expense to the racer, and put all of the money into 600's pocket.
Now light weight wheels, softer tires, lighter & lighter cars...
Then the biggest change of all, sealed engines.
Why did we go to sealed engines?
Well, there are many reasons that have been put out there, but it really boils down to who gets the money. They had "certified" sealed engine builders across the country and they were doing engines illegally because if you had "Joe's" engine it ran better than "Fred's" engine. So, to stop this from happening we, 600 Racing, have to bring the program in house. That did a couple of things, sure it eliminates the cheating by sealed engine builders, but it also put all of the money in the pocket of, now, USLCI. Why were the "certified" engine builder not penalized and/or stripped of their certification and another in the are found and appointed?
USLCI also has a variety of different "sealed" engines you can buy from them, it just depends on the horsepower you want and how much money is in your pocket that you want to put in their pocket.
But, why wasn't there a technical inspection program that checked all engine sealed or unsealed? I remember at all of the early year national events, if you finished in the top three you were taking you engine home in a box. I have taken many of my engines home in a box following a top three run.
In my opinion the current management is taking this program in a different direct than the founding fathers had the vision to go. Sure, USLCI is a business and I am a stock holder of the stock which I bought when it was offer to use Legends races in the mid 90's. glad it is making money, but it is sad to see the change in direction and I am fearful for the future of the series.
At a time when the nation has been in a troubled economic state for then last several years and there is no relief in sight, why is USLCI making this series more expensive for the racer. The sanctioning bodies logo of "INEX" was put in place because the was supposed to be "INEX"pense racing. If we really want this series to grow outside of the hub area of NC then this series needs to become inexpensive again and let the racer feel like there is a choice in something they bolt onto their race car.
I am sure this message will make its way to USLCI and I hope that it is read, not as a complaint but as a concern for the direction of this program that has such great potential to succeed, but if they keep squeezing more & more money from the racer, they might be headed down hill.
I can tell you that locally our car count have been suffering for the last several years. The beginning of the season always s starts strong, but by race 3 or 4 of the season the car count drops and then by the end of the season there is barely enough cars to have a complete field.
I have been around a long time, and I am not sure, but possibly longer than anyone working for USLCI and since I am in California we are the furthest thing from the minds of USLCI in NC. But, since the program was started as nation wide program, the cares & concerns of the nation need to be heard and considered.
Don't forget, we have a new INEX approved brake system coming out...was it because of Brakeman caliper and people spend too much money on them? Well since the Brakeman calipers are illegal because they use a o-ring instead of a square cut seal that problem could have been eliminated years ago by disqualifying the racer with those illegal calipers. Now, in Dennis' own words, the new system works as good as the Brakman calipers and they have not even been raced by the masses yet. Once the get out in the field and people start testing new pads & combination the system will surpass the stock calipers. So, guess what, if you want to be competitive you have to put more of your money into the pockets of USLCI.
But, just like I have said all along, "we are paying to play in their sandbox"
The question is now... is it worth paying them to play in their sandbox?
Randy - RPM
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Please go to USLC web site to read the final draft and date postings on the sealed engines and other rules.
I believe the OVERWHELMING response from competitors across the country has prompted the date change to a more realistic date. (Iam not saying this is good or bad, just passing the info to you)
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FYI: All INEX Inspectors,
I sent a letter to you along with your 2013 INEX membership card detailing some of the upcoming changes anticipated for the 2013 INEX rulebook.
That letter has been posted onto the US Legends website with a few up-dates to it.
The section about competitors getting their seals updated has been changed to include all older (tube style) seals (green, blue & silver). The official posting on the website also extends out the deadline for getting the old seals updated to the beginning of the 2014 racing season.
More details on how & where this seal update can be done will be posted soon.
Also, a bulletin will be sent to all INEX inspectors to show what the good & bad seals will be for the 2014 racing season.
Thanks for your cooperation & support.
Sincerely,
Scott Reinhardt
(INEX Executive Technical Director)
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Alright; Now it is all official and out in the open via INEX.
Play nice kids. This thread is starting to get some not so nice tones to it.
Steve
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Looks like my email to John and Scott actually did some good... :) At least we may be headed in the right direction. Only time will tell.
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Many people have made phone calls or sent emails.
I hope that at least some of the changes will be for the better.
Steve
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Here is the part of the bulletin that interests this post:
The weight rule for Legend Cars will be changed to, 1300 lbs. minimum total with the driver (as raced) & 640 lbs. minimum right side with the driver (as raced).
Percentages will no longer be used for the weight requirements of INEX.
All Legend Car Engines with clear plastic seals, green (old style) seals, blue (old style) seals or silver (old style) seals must be sent in to the US Legends Engine shop (or INEX approved location) for inspection & re-sealing prior to the 2014 racing season. o The shipping fee for all engines remains capped at $200.00. Additionally your tech fee will be waived if the engine passes. Please contact the Engine Shop at 705-455-3896 ext. 228 to schedule an appointment sometime before the start of the 2014 season.
Note the underlined part.
Robert
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I see that the Bando engine seals are also in need of inspection by 2014.
Steve
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So, since they are also building engines at USCLI West/Las Vegas, can engines be sent to them for inspection and resealing?
Dennis, do you know?
Randy - RPM
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On that same note, What about our friends in Canada?
Steve
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Iam told that they can go to Vegas.
Canada has a sealed engine builder.
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who is the sealed engine builder in Canada? Where is he located?
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LenTech Motorsports , P.O. Box 1207, 3835 McBean St,
Richmond, ON
Canada
K0A 2Z0 (Near Ottawa, Ontario) (http://www.lentechautomotive.com)
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I think us legends should build an electronic fuel injector so they can cut the carb builders out as well... Then they can mandate all you guys have to buy a sealed fuel management unit.
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Do not forget the tire cutters and the fab shops.
What was that engine number that you posted pics of ?
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Interesting about the builder in Canada. He is closer to me than Charlotte. Is there any rule in place saying that he can only build motors in Canada, or can he do any engines? Would save me from having to ship to NC when I can drive 3 hours to Ottawa.
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Brad, you would have to call Chad or GE and discuss it. Also, not sure on pricing or border crossing issues.
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Interesting about the builder in Canada. He is closer to me than Charlotte. Is there any rule in place saying that he can only build motors in Canada, or can he do any engines? Would save me from having to ship to NC when I can drive 3 hours to Ottawa.
As long as it is an "appoved" INEX seal, it looks like you can take to any three of the facilities for re-certification.
Randy - RPM
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Thanks. I am not sure if the border crossing would be an issue either, I was just think the 3-4 hour drive is a lot better than 12 to Charlotte.
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My question is what are they going to do when a lot of people just don't do it? I have talked with several people around here that said that they are just not going to do it. I don't think that they are illegal, it's just they don't want to spend money on something that they are not getting anything out of it. What happens if we the customers refuse to have this done? I don't think a track owner will send half his field home for it because it makes no difference to him. I don't have the answer but I do this for the fun of it and I'm not planning on spending $200-$300 so that USLC can feel better about what I have. They better figure something out because everyone that I have talked to about is pissed off and not going to do it. Maybe a hit in the pocket like that would make them change there mind. Probable not.
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Here is the part of the bulletin that interests this post:
All Legend Car Engines with clear plastic seals, green (old style) seals, blue (old style) seals or silver (old style) seals must be sent in to the US Legends Engine shop (or INEX approved location) for inspection & re-sealing prior to the 2014 racing season. o The shipping fee for all engines remains capped at $200.00. Additionally your tech fee will be waived if the engine passes. Please contact the Engine Shop at 705-455-3896 ext. 228 to schedule an appointment sometime before the start of the 2014 season.
Note the underlined part.
Robert
So, INEX has now changed the time frame of the mandated re-certification of the INEX sealed engine to prior the 2014 racing season. Well that only did one thing, changed the amount of time you have to pay for shipping and possibly a "tech fee" to USLCI so they can change your seals.
This is still a bad deal, we all know that there are only a small percentage that build cheater engines behind the seals, but the majority of us are going to have to pay for the re-certification of every engine because of them.
There is nothing that cannot be checked at the track, the old seals removed and the new seals installed. There are bore gauges that go into the spark plug hole, a gauge for checking the holes of the cam gears, there is a profile tool for the cams and the pans can be pulled to inspect for lightened rods or cranks, carbs & headers removed to check for posting of the head. Hell if we really want to get technical the Whistler can be brought out of the closet and the compression ratio can be checked.
The only thing that cannot be checked without removing the cylinder head is the piston/deck height. If that one thing is all that is not checked, that one thing is not going to allow an engine to make any more than a marginal amount more horsepower due to the increased compression ratio. But that can be determined by the Whistler...
We now know the shipping is capped at $200, I just spoke with Brian in the engine shop and the tech fee is $150.00. If the engine is found to be legal, they are going to way the tech fee which includes the labor and gaskets required to put the engine back together. But from there if it is illegal, for any reason, the cost goes up from there.
So far just the shipping cost alone are going to eat up your $40.00 entry for five events alone and the engine has not even out of you car yet...
I will say this again, I know all of my posts will make it to those in charge at the mother ship, and I stand behind my comments. This is a raw deal that has been put in place, just like the other decision on brakes, because those who choose to cheat and beat all of the "regular" racers. Now the regular racers have to pony up the money to stay competitive in the brake department or pony up the money to stay racing with a sealed engine.
But, just like I have said all along, "we are paying to play in their sandbox"
The question is now... is it worth paying them to keep playing in their sandbox?
Randy - RPM
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The way I read the statment from INEX none of the rules will be in effect until they annouce a date. Is this the way you guys read it?
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I just don't see the big issue about this since they delayed the timing. Most likely you have run your engine last year, and now your going to race another year on it... That engine is going to be ready for a rebuild anyways... Just my 2 cents
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how many of these motors that go down to get resealed will get a call from engine shop saying, you know you could use.........and why not get it done while we have it apart.
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Randy, I argee with your last statement 100%.....However, like Chad replied, there is a good chance that some of these engines will be due for a rebuild after the completion of this upcoming season and it would be the perfect time to have both seals updated and whatever parts replaced that need to be replaced. And yes, the others that dont' require a rebuild should be able to checked at the track by a QUALIFIED Inex inspector and then resealed with proper seals. Just my two cents... :)
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NOT dIRECTED AT ANY INDIVIDUAL!!!!!
If you or whoever run a sealed engine it is going to need a rebuild correct ? If you or whoever have OLD seals it has not been rebuilt in atleast 2 full seasons correct? Now this will be the third FULL season? Unless you have a sealed motor as a back up with old seals and are upset. How could your motor NOT need rebuilt? OH, maybe someone else is rebuilding these motors and it would now have to go back to be opened up and folks are worried. COME ON, the seals will be atleast THREE years old soon correct.
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Irace,
As per my last post, if your motor has OLD seals, when was it rebuilt and how many races are on it??? We rebuild our motors every 25 races (approx). Maybe thats why we have few problems with our sealed engines, we rebuild them too often. Now seriously, my question is this, lets here from the guys with old seals, other than having a spare engine with old seals how could you NOT have over 30 races on it, please guys I am not being cocky, lets hear it, lets hear these motor scenarios and why your old sealed motor will not need rebuilt by this time next year.
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i understand what your saying dennis, but lets take me for a example, i have two boys one bando one legends, two sealed motors for both, we only run the shootout, because we are self funded and that is twice as much each time so 10 races is plenty for us, now if your telling me 600s motors are not going to get 30 or 40 race days out of them something is wrong with there product.
ROB
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Rob,
I am NOT saying you can not get thirty or forty races and there will be exceptions to having an old sealed motor. I am saying that 90% of the motors with old seals would certainly need to be rebuilt by the end of 2013. If you are racing the shootout with a 30 race old engine are you competitive, just asking?
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Duh on me!
Rob if you run the shootout you can take your sealed motor or whole car straight to USLC and have them check it and reseal it. No freight involved, not sure why this would effect you?
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Well I own three sealed motors with blue seals and a open motor all my motors are legal, I agree with what Scott said well if this goes through looks like this will be my last year and everything will up for sale it's not for me any longer where did all the fun go,just because of all the jackasses that want to chest screw this
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Brad,
USLC said today that me, you, we or whoever cannot send motors from the uS to Canada without special permission.
The LAST old style seals were installed sometime in JULY OF 2010 according to USLC. As of January 2014 those seals would 3.5 years old, those were the LAST of the old style seals.
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Man that would not be good..... I live about 10 miles from the canadian border (seriously) and an hour from Lentech in Canada.... I would really hope they would let me drive my motor 1 hour to Lentech rather than ship it all the way to Charlotte.....
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Slack, I am sure its worth a call to GE.
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Dennis,
Well, out here in California since the oval season is 10-12 races, there are many engines out here that are that old and older. Are they competitive, well I guess that is all in perspective. Sure, they are 45+ years old, they have a job and responsibilities they are required to attended to on every Monday after a race. They are happy they get to roll the car on the trailer at the end of the night, and if for chance they win, that is just frosting on the cake.
Did they win? Maybe.
Or did they race in a pack of cars and get the enjoyment of racing while getting to load the car back on the trailer at the end of the night, maybe that is the win for them.
This really is not about winning or losing to the majority of the Legend racers. Sure they want to win, but sometimes it is more about the sport than the win. These guys done not spend big money on cheater sealed engines or brake calipers, they just race.
I understand you are a dealer and I truly respect you for speaking up for the racers on this and several other forums. Early on in this post, you said this was a bad deal. Was it a bad deal because of the time frame or because they want to upgrade the seals because of the 1% of the cheaters?
Okay, now the date has been pushed back, but it still is a bad deal. Every racer is on the hook for the $200 in shipping charges, they could then be responsible for the $150.00 "tech fee" and then if anything is illegal they are responsible for more cost than that. Sure some engines are going to need rebuilding and that is the time to reseal.
All other engines that have the old style seals can be checked locally by using the tools provided to the INEX tech inspectors.
Take it from an engine guy, me;
The only things that cannot be inspected regarding illegal sealed engines by a local tech inspector are two things. The cylinder/deck height and radial gas ported pistons. Now, if either of these two illegal modification were done to a sealed engine the gain(s) are minimal. The gas porting causing excessive ring wear so they are going to be blowing oil by the end of the season and the deck height is not going to make that much difference. But, it can be determined via the Whistler of excessive compression ratio due to the reduced deck height.
So, those two things are not found by the local inspector, but the engine is sealed with the new seal. The engine is allowed to compete and wears out. The engine is then sent in for rebuilding and those items are corrected and the engine is now back into 100% compliance.
If for some reason a sealed engine stomps everybody into the dirt, it is time for the INEX tech inspector to look closer or a racer needs to protest that engine. that is why there is a INEX technical inspection process as well as a protesting process, but you have to put your money where your mouth is.
I have said this before when talking about brakes, wheels, shocks, and now the new hot topic re-sealed engines, this is all about money plain and simple. Lets say for example USLCI just certifies 3000 engines in the next year, not counting additional work that might be needed or illegal parts found and replaced, just re-certification only at the amount of $350.00 based on the shipping and tech fee. Why that comes up to a cool $1,050,000.00, that rights over a million dollars.
Hmmm, over one million dollars just to look at engines, put a new seal on it and everyone is now "legal", until the new seal is found a way past and they are in the same boat with people complaining about cheated sealed engines.
Now, lets talk about brakes...
It has been common knowledge now the new INEX/Wilwood brake package is going to cost the racer $400.00. So, lets say USLCI sells 3000 sets of those this year because they make the old stuff obsolete since they work just as good as the current big $$ BM parts. Now, I can tell you out here is California the road race program has zero of the 25-30 cars with BM parts and the oval group has about 10%. So, now the new INEX brakes show up at the track and someone drives in 20" deeper, guess what everyone has to have them or you cant even keep up, let alone be competitive.
So, let look at those numbers for a minute...Let say they sell 3000 of those brake kits at a cost of $400.00, that is a mere $1,200,000.00
Yep, 1.2 million dollars..
When ultimately all that has to be done, is the tech inspector needs to inspected the calipers. If they have round o-rings instead of the Toyota/INEX "as delivered" square cut seal, the driver is disqualified and the parts are confiscated. Seem like the BM product would go away pretty quickly.
Oh, I know the poor old Toyota celica calipers are getting hard to find, which is also one of the justifications of the "new brakes". BS, I can call my supplier and get a set of calipers any day of the week. If that really was an issue, why is USCLI not casting those caliper in the 2" & 2 1/8" varieties, they made them in 2 1/4" overseas without any concern.
Why because they cannot charge you, the racer $400.00 for a "better brake system to combat the high prices of the BM products" if the cast the stock calipers in 2 & 2 1/8".
Yep, 1.2 million + another million plus for engine resealing. It is going to be a good year at USCLI. I wish my SMI (TRK) stock showed such a big profit. I bought 100 shares back in 95 for $10.00, it is running at $17.23 today.
Dennis, don't get me wrong and this is not an attack on you. I have been around a long time and I am probably just as invested than you, if not more so. I currently own 4 Legends cars and 2 roadsters. I have seven sealed engines with one "nationals only" green sealed engine that has been raced a total of 7 times. This engine is not even a blitz 4, it was a factory Yamaha INEX sealed engine that has had the valves adjusted and a double spring put in the clutch. I have over 20 open 1200's everything from core engines needing to be built to a full endurance engine I use for our racing endure series that has billet cams and flat slide carbs.
One difference between you and I regarding dealing & racing with INEX, is that it is people like me, that buy from dealers like you that keep you in business. Sure you have invested money to operate your business and so have I. But everything I have to race with INEX is not for sale, I own it and have no plans to sell it.
We can all agree, this series is affordable in the overall cost of racing. But, the current management is taking that affordability away with every step they make lately. It was great to be able to be out on the track racing with my two sons from my income from my job, I surely could not do this with a sprint car, late model and even a go kart.
But, you are going to have a hard time convincing me how this is good for the racer; $2,250,000.00
Randy - RPM
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Dennis,
Thanks for the update. I for one will say, I will be lucky if my old motor makes it all season, so I am in for a new engine soon anyway, and when it's time, I plan to go new. I was actually thinking of slack as well when Canada came up, as there are about 10 guys (maybe more) that race at Evans Mills and are all within an hour of Ottawa. I hope GE/USLC will allow them to go there for rebuilds/reseal instead of Charlotte as it will make it much cheaper and easier, not to mention likely much quicker turnaround.
Thanks again Dennis.
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Randy,
I am not trying to argue you, but come on. 3000 brake kits? what are there, MAYBE 500-1000 legends actually being raced? I don't know the number off hand, but I can't imagine it is anywhere near 3000. And not everyone is going to buy the new kit. I would bet they are lucky to sell 400 this year.
Even stock toyota parts you will spend a good 250-300 for a full front brake system.
$55/caliper (2 needed)
$15/ backing plate (2 needed)
$15/caliper bracket (2 needed)
$4/shim (4 needed)
$75 for brake pads (mid grade)
That is $261, and that is for all stock, stuff except for pads.
Seems to me $400 is well worth it to have a GOOD brake system that is made for racing.
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No argument here, It is good to debate these types of issue that have a direct connection the money the "average" racer is going to have to spend.
I believe there are many more cars being raced that you believe. We already have had 23 cars at our first road race in the rain last month. So, combined with the oval guys in just central California this year we are going to have 75-100 cars participate. You then have to calculate the 40-50 cars running Northern California and then there is the SoCal group which trumps the tow upper regionss combined.
If you already have a car and are racing it, why do you need anything other than a caliper rebuild? You already have the brackets, backing plates & shims?
So, you have the cost of two kits $8-12 x 2 = $16-24
Then your mid grade brake pad $75.00
So, you are under $100.00 and some time invested?
Why do you need a $400.00 for a "good" brake kit.
Randy - RPM
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Dennis,
I have only ran about 4-5 races a year. Some because of work and some because of money. Last year I ran 14 and so my motor might have 25 races on it. I do have a 1200 that I run most of my races on and put the 1250 in for National events. So what I saying is that really don't know how many races I have on it. I know that if USLC could build a motor that would last for a decent price none of this would even be a problem. They had about 15 motors in the truck after the Winter Nationals. It looked like they were hauling wood. I have never cheated but what ever seals they put on these motors it will not take those who go behind them long to do it again. It is putting a band-aid on a sucking chest wound. I have said and say it again that I do not have the answer but I do know that what they are doing is not the answer either. It appears to me that it is all about money.
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Dennis,
Did you ever get clarification on the weight rule?
Are they just doing 1300 total with driver, 640Right side, or will there be a rear #/%?
Maybe I missed it with all the engine talk.
Thanks,
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I am what you would call a field filler. A guy in his 40's who decided to give Legends racing a shot for fun and as a way to have something fun to share with his father. I am no threat to win, and my budget is tight, so this hurts me and will probably prevent me from running a few races I would have otherwise ran. The only way to prevent this stuff is to tech at the track, otherwise the guys who know how to game the system will continue to do so.
I know US Legends says I am the kind of driver they cater to, but when I see 14 year old kids with 4 cars and a Nascar Hauler winning races with a 3/4 of a lap lead, I realize I may have been duped. It seems Legends wants to be a feeder series to bigger things for the children of deep pockets, then just a fun low cost outlet for guys like me.
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Right on Briz 81! Couldn't agree with you more. I must be a field killer then too as I joined the Legends series over 3 years ago and currently am in my early 50's. I am one as Randy earlier classified as a racer who just enjoys racing in itself, and if I win, heck it's an added bonus. I've raced against both young and old, but I'll have to admit that I cater to the older generation being an old fogey myself. Guess I grew up in the generation where we all didn't just go to the race shop and buy, buy, buy. I've made many parts and fixtures over the years like I'm sure many others have. Guess I'm just an old fuddy duddy..... Maybe guys like us should just make up decals for our window visors that says 'Field Filler'...LOL
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Both of you are spot on. I'm entering my 10th season but they do seem to be more concerned in end with a kid that will be here for a year or two. I know this is a business that is here to make money and will if ran correctly. This was a great series but it is getting out of control and will eat itself if someone doesn't show some leadership at the home office.
Field Filler
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"..will eat itself.." Ha, HAS. When I started we would have 18 to 24 cars. I ran for 4 years and the car counts started to fall to the point of 10 to 15. Due to "club" problems I said the heck with it, but I still love these cars. Now in my area they get 5 to 8 cars and there are alot of cars in the area parked or sold in the last few years.
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With the exception of us "hobby" racers; The young ones are moving on to other classes. Open wheel seems to be popular, as well as late models.
That is not to say that "hobby" racers are any less serious about their racing. I'm just saying that "Joe Racer" helps a lot to keep up the car counts up and are more consistant. Track owners count on us to show up week after week and year after year. Fans show up in the stands to root for "Joe Racer". That makes track owners happy. When INEX starts getting away from their mission statement about "inexpensive" racing, they start to alienate "Joe Racer". Joe wants to race... And will go wherever he/ she can afford to race.
I see Legends cars for sale every day. Some selling to move on: Some selling to get out. Some blame increasing costs, some cite lack of enforcement of rules, others get frustrated with lack of enough notice of rule changes. I know that I was happy to see INEX change their time frame on the engine seals. I, personally, would like to see them have the following years rules laid out by the end of the previous season. That way everyone has plenty of time to save up money to buy their parts, set up the car, and make any changes necessary.
I still think the best way to get your thoughts to INEX is to contact them directly and let them know your concerns. If everyone contacted them to let them know what you think about a proposed rule, or part; Perhaps rules will reflect the majority of racers.
Just some of my thoughts, for whatever anyone thinks they are worth.
Steve
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Another thought I have about rule changes has to deal with the weight rule.
How is this rule going to affect road racers? Or, will they even have worry about this rule?
Will there be a seperate rule on weight percentages for road racers?
I just don't think INEX has thought this all the way through.
Yes.... More of my thoughts.
Take them for what you will.
Steve
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Thank you to whomever removed that last post that I had read last night....It was very disrespectful. So now that the date for the sealed engine deal has been moved back, let's all work together to make this series better for 2013.
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if you weigh 200 pounds, expect to have to weigh 1350 total, to get to the 640 minimum right side.....what a joke.
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I haven't tested anything on scales yet, but I believe the weight rule will help bigger guys. I still think the 100lb kids have a great advantage, but I don't believe their advantage will be as great. In my mind, if everyone has to get up to 1350 to make the 640 rs rule, it evens things out a ton. I honestly think that 200+lb guys won't have to add any lead to get to the 640, if they do it'll be to make the 1300 pounds. I will say however that this gives guys much more incentive to buy light weight wheels!
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LOL!!! I'm lucky to weigh 150 lbs soaking wet. :D
The light weight wheels will help with unsprung weight, but not help with the overall weight.
My point is that everyone wants to have the lightest weight car they can get through tech.
IF a person is of larger size (NO... I am not calling anyone fat), then they could lighten up the car (to a certain extent).
As driver is located to the left side of the car; It would seem to me that weight would need to be added to the right side to make the required weight rule.
Not sure if I am missing something here.
Steve
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No No No guys this weight rule hurts the 100lb driver. I have ran the numbers on the scales and it changes it all. The 100 lb kid will be lucky to be 50.5 left ehile the 200 lb driver will be closer to 52 left if you play it right.
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I think it will definitely help the more stoutly proportioned such as myself. No rule is "fair" to everybody, I'll take this one though. My car is 1086 without driver, sucked having to add lead to meet 1100, then putting my 240# ass in the seat ;D
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I get the left side weight Dennis. What I am asking is; Would the heavier driver then have to add weight to the right side to make the right side weight rule?
Steve
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How does the weight of a driver effect the left side % when you still have to hit a MINIMUM of 640 pounds Right Side Weight. To Achieve 52% Left Side weight your car HAS to weigh 1340 pounds. Period. My Driver is 120 pounds and it makes NO Difference! If anything the way they wrote the rule is once again a Advantage to the smaller drivers because we can get more Rear % The scales dont know the size of the driver or the position of the driver. The fact remains you have to hit 640 pounds right side weight regardless of the size of the driver. I will run our car a little over weight to achieve my left side % I want and maintain the right side rule. No big deal carrying a little more weight if the car handles better because of it.
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Depends on set up, car, etc. I won't have to add weight on my car to get 640 right side
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You might not have to but what does that put you for Left side % and Total weight?
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For my autocrossing, I am looking at a more neutrally balanced car. Therefore my interest in the 640 lb right side rule.
As I am still building my car, and not yet had it on scales, I do not know what the right side weight averages on an average car.
For me, a lighter driver will keep the car more balanced left to right.
Steve
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640 of 1300 is 49.3 period end of story. If you want more left side than 50.7 you will have to be over 1300... Simple math
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My 110 lb driver and I played on the scale for several hours today. We are happy with the set-up at 640 right, I did go back to my old set-up because the way I read the rule it is not in effect until INEX says. Some of you guys are correct and we are over 1300 lbs.
Thx
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Grape is correct and on the right path, at 1300 lbs with driver. Alot of 180 plus drivers are not at 1300 lbs, for every pound over 1300 the left will go up and you can maintain 640 right. All these cars that were right at 1315 lbs with driver were running right at 52% left. will not be able to get 52% left unless you add weight, this will even out the overall weight difference of a 170lb driver. WE ARE STILL UNDER THE OLD RULE UNTIL THE RULE BOOKS COME OUT AND THEN A DATE WILL BE SET. Yes you can run all the rear you want, as long as you want the nose of the car going to the wall under acceleration.
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No matter how you write the rule, a 100lb driver will always have an advanatge, no way around it. The more lead placed on the bottom of the car to acheive 1300 lbs, the better off you are. I just finished a 34 coupe for a 130 lb driver. 7 full bars of lead on the bottom of the car. Cars weighs about 1315, that is alot of bottom weight. That is a 130 lb driver, think if he were 100 lbs. Hard for a 200 lbs driver to compete with. You cant change that no matter how you write the rule.
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Is this rule also to help even out the coupes and sedans? I owned a sedan, and could just get 51 percent left with lead and everything i tried, I bought a coupe for this coming year and put it on the scales with no lead, and I was already above my left side percentage of the fully loaded sedan. Maybe that was just me, but is this maybe also to even out the two.
If you look at all the national events, you see a whole lot of coupes and very few sedans.... Just wondering if this was also to address that.
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I never had an issue with the coupes vs sedans other than the 4 bar is somewhat heavy. My favorite car is the two bar Sedan, but they are not favored by Inex. The coupe in my opinion is so popular because once a few guys started winning in them they have continued to become the reason for winning. I like the weight distribution of the sedan better.
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I would add, that I think Coupes are more popular because they are so much easier to get to the rear end on them. I know plenty of guys that win with sedans. In fact a few old guys named Clay and Cotton seemed to do pretty well with sedans....
I have never seen a difference in left side weight with a sedan vs coupe either.
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LOL Brad, the access is way easier. Try getting a battery out of 34 Sedan, better off taking it out through the wheel area.
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Besides.... The Coupes just look cool!!! ;D
Thanks for the info guys! I am on the right path. ;)
Steve
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make sure you tape up the terminals, just in case it slips and falls...
joe
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I know this is is a little late but to the people that commented on the young drive I under stand just what you are saying. We used to run quarter midgets and there were lots of parents that spent all there money to win. But also remember there are parents that spend all there money so there little girl can race. And some how she figures out how to win. Maybe now that we are racing legends she can figure it out again because i for sure do not have the money to buy wins. All I am saying is not all the children are the same.
Thanks cody
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I know this is is a little late but to the people that commented on the young drive I under stand just what you are saying. We used to run quarter midgets and there were lots of parents that spent all there money to win. But also remember there are parents that spend all there money so there little girl can race. And some how she figures out how to win. Maybe now that we are racing legends she can figure it out again because i for sure do not have the money to buy wins. All I am saying is not all the children are the same.
Thanks cody
My post was not directed as a jab at younger drivers, or wealthy ones, there are plenty of good kids and their parents and guys/ladies with big bucks out there racing having fun and keeping things in perspective. However, (in the south at least) I scratch my head at all these folks who show up to the races with the $150,000+ full size haulers, four cars, hired pitcrew etc.... all for what is supposed to be a fun, INEXpensive, form of racing. There is also a breed of folks down here determined to make their kid the next NASCAR star at any cost. I am pretty much a newb to Legends, but have heard from others about certain folks soaking tires, bypassing seals etc... all in an effort to rack up as many wins they can before jumping up to bigger things. It's these folks that USL seems to now cater to since they always want shiny new go fast parts, and will spend a premium on them.
Anyway, my frustration is not out of jealousy of these guys. Rather, it's that I spent a good chunk of money on what I thought was a budget friendly class that is now getting as expensive to run as a Limited Late Model.
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Briz81 couldn't agree more.
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As Briz81 said, neither was my earlier post directed as a jab at younger drivers and besides that, Briz81 summed it up as well as could be said. The ways things are going, I could buy a street stock complete with engine for what these cars are going for these days and still have some money to boot.
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I did not think it was a jab at all the kid that race I just wonted to remind you that there are family's that race that just won't to race. If you think it's bad in legends you should go to some of the big quarter midget races. The kids are racing 4 or 5 cars and some of the engines have close to what we pay for a legends motor.
Thanks cody
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As Briz81 said, neither was my earlier post directed as a jab at younger drivers and besides that, Briz81 summed it up as well as could be said. The ways things are going, I could buy a street stock complete with engine for what these cars are going for these days and still have some money to boot.
Oh come on Mark, you know you wouldn't be happy in a street stock.
This is still the best bang for the buck in racing.
The mothership may be making some wrong turns, and it's up to us to inform them of it, but it's still the best out there I believe.
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Jim, I was only using it as an example as the costs of racing these cars just keeps escalating, but then again I guess everything else seems to also. I can tell you for a fact that I could put together a complete street stock with a decent engine for about $4000. But then again, at my age the Legends cars are much easier to work on and I don't plan on changing classes anytime soon. And you're right, it 's up to all of us to provide feedback to the mothership at USCL to right the ship. If we all just sit silent, they will just do as they please. ;D
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I have been around a long time, in the big picture not much has changed. The biggest cost is motor and tires unless like everything else you crash. The motor rebuilds are around 3K for a full rebuild, tires have been $99 since I dont know when, the price of everyday expenses has went through the roof leaving alot less to race on. The big dollar teams have been around since forever. I remember when Reed Sorenson showed up in a hauler and watched cartoons while his crew wrenched on the car. Honestly there will always be big money and that will not change. We all have opinions of what is right and wrong. I ahve seen alot of changes, people come and go. Race within your means and enjoy it.
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I get what your saying Dennis, I just have to shake my head at the folks doing the racing equivalent of hiring the New York Yankees to win their softball beer league.
BTW, do you know why the Legends Engines cost as much as a 604 crate?
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I can not give you the answer you are looking for in regards to the v8 crate. I would say for one the v8 components are mass produced in the states. From what I understand the v8 crate RACE READY is closer to 8K to 10K when all said and done. Then you have a Legend car motor, sold by YAmaha, imported to the US and retailed by USLC. I do nOT know the price USLC pays for the engine. When we all ran 1200's and there were many builders the rebuild cost by the WELL KNOWN shops were as much and many times it was higher than USLC is today. That is a fact. Based on a complete rebuild being $2600 to $3200 I can see a new motor being 5K, even though I AGREE it seems a better bargain to buy the V8 crate when you compare apples to apples. Like i said I can not justify the cost of the engine, I am a dealer and I try to help with the little margains I have to work with.
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Thanks, was just curious and had a few racers in other divisions ask me why they were so expensive. Last question, I will need to get my engine rebuilt at the end of the season. I have some new wiseco pistons and a few other new engine pieces for the motor that came with the car. Will I be able to give those parts to USLC to use in the rebuild?
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We can discuss the cost of a new Legends motor, but with the V8 add a few grand for the trans too
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Price of a new GM 602 crate engine is $3319, add cost of carb at $650 and add another $250-500 for transmission and you're right at about $4500. GM 604 crate is going for about $5500 minus carb. Sure would be nice if someone could mass produce at Yamaha crate engine in the US.... ;D
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Mark, you should get Kohler to build a 4 cylinder for us
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over power these cars would be awesome.. gets rid of buying 10 horses for an extra 2k or more.. water cool them and add race tires..
i'm in joe
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I'd love to see us asphalt cars on a 13" Hoosier slick tire for approx. $100 as this would eliminate the cost of approx. $120 to cut four tires. I firmly believe tire longevity would be as good if not better than the federals and boy, would they stick to the race track.... :)
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I know this is a hypothetical topic and as much as I would love to have a tire that we didn't have to shave, I think Hoosiers would make the cars too fast. That much side bite with no sway bar could be a bad thing. One of the things that appeals to me about these cars is how much power they have versus the lack of tire. That makes them difficult to drive and is a bit of an equalizer. I get the cost issue. However, you must remember that you can get the same federal tire at Schwabs for about $60, it just doesn't have the inex stamp on it. I'm not suggesting that anyone go out and buy them to race on, just pointing out the profit margin that 600 has on them. I'm sure they wouldn't go to another tire without that same profit margin.
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Us legends pays $24-2800 per unit. My labor to split cases is $1k, plus a valve job $299, snd milling the block snd head for $65 each, the rest is parts...
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Putting these cars on Hoosiers would be a mistake. I agree cutting these tires is............. well ok, its bad in several aspects including the fact its a total advantage to certain people. My understanding with a tire like a hoosier is you would have to deal with multiple tires for stagger and that is a pain in the ars. Water cooling this motor is a bandage that does not add up, cooling the jug is crap. If we are going watercooled and it is long term, then lets change motors and figure out the details to phase them in.
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Grape, you charge $1K to split cases? I am in the wrong business.... I can split a case in under 2hrs, and I have only done 3-4 of these ever.
Not bashing you, after all, if you can get that kind of money, good on you, but how does that even make sense? Or am i reading what you wrote wrong?
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Split cases = complete rebuild
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Grape
I would really like some more info on a typical rebuild and cost. Also, you never did give me that engine number of the pics you posted of that sealed engine you said was sleeved wrong. You posted the pics and said this was a sealed motor that was done wrong with a couple races, should not be an issue giving the engine number or seal number.
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Seals ended up in the trash lol. Saw another customer with a new one this weekend smoking profusely out of the tailpipe, literally was shipped to him from charlotte in the last month. This is going to get good lol
The engine number on the one i did was in the 3300 range and i dont remember it off the top of my head. Its been in a dwarf car for the last 2 months. The number is on the paperwork st my shop, i will check tomorrow. It was also billed to have a pinned cam, and it did not.
My prices on engine rebuilds are pretty standard. Figure 17 hours of disassembly, cleaning, machine work, reassembly on an fj/xj at $65/hour. I cut it short and make it $1000, plus machine work and parts. I usually let my customers buy parts, as its not worth the hastle for very little margin.
Valve job $299 unless its been screwed up by a serdi machine....then its extra.
Hone a block to size iron or nikasil, (as we own $5k worh of diamond hone equipment, us legends does not, for proper material removal in plated cylinders) $125
Bore and hone $200
Surface head $65
Surface block $65
My engine dyno time is $500 per day plus consumables, fuel oil etc.
At track data aquisition and tuning with my telemtry on your car is $1000 per day. This is throttle position vs oxygen sensor readings which usually sells carb kits, plus the oil pressure trace after the day usually sells me a few oiling systems :).
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Grape,
I am calling BS, you posted a photo of a motor you say ran 4 nights with sunken sleeves, you said he JUST paid $5400 ran 4 nights and its the first you did in years. Now you tell me the motor number was around 3300. The engine numbers are near 5000 now, that motor would be WAY older! I am lost!
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Not everybody runs engines immediately after purchased, it prob sat around for a while. None of my business nor do i care. However, if that $5400 engine had been sold as a $3800 non screwed with piece of japanese equipment, the customer would probably still be running it with no failures. Ive done plenty of fj and xj stuff in the last few years, this just happened to be the first i had seen inside of after the charlotte folks worked their magic. The last charlotte engine i fixed was '08 after a broken exhaust cam due to cam caps being stripped while in charlotte.
PS motors are electric.....engines operate with fuel.
Oh, forgot, i can add a 3 speed gearbox to your engine for $1000 that adds a few hp and never have to touch your seals . :)
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(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/forum/smileyvault-popcorn.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)
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Race within your means and enjoy it.
Dennis,
This is one of the best statements I have seen in awhile. And very true!
I try to tell new members this same bit of advice.
Grape,
Its been in a dwarf car for the last 2 months.
Dwarf Cars have not run the FJ/XJ engines in a very long time. Water cooled and fuel injected are the norm now days.
Newer GSXRs and ZX10s are pretty common. Most are "built" (to some extent) depending on sanctioning body rules.
Dwarf Cars have their fair share of people who "bend the rules" also. Or have the money that they can afford to throw at their racing program.
Just saying that I don't see why a Dwarf Car racer would throw money into an older engine when they could upgrade to a newer style engine for less money.
??? Whatever... That persons choice I guess.
Tires...
That always opens up another can of worms.
Used to be that ALL Legends Cars ran the BFGs; Dirt or Pavement.
Now they have seperate tires for for both. Sure, it cost folks to change over to the different tires. In the long run, I think it has been an ok move. Dirt racers got a more dirt friendly tire and pavement racers got a tire more suited to their needs. Are either choices the best.... That will continue to be an ongoing debate.
SCCA allows a couple of Hoosier tires, and (if I recall correctly) a GoodYear tire as well as the Federal tire. Different Dwarf Car sanctioning bodies require different brands of tires, certain durometer readings, or a spec tire for their rules. The tire debate is just as big a deal as the tire rules for Legends Cars.
I continue to support the idea that "IF racers do not let INEX (or whatever sanctioning body they may run) know their thoughts, then the sanctioning body is going to do what they choose to do. I guess we will all just have to see what the final word is when the rulebook comes out. :-\
Steve
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Dwarfs are a disaster, there is no comparison period.
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The comparison is that Dwarf Cars ARE the roots of Legends Cars.
Dwarf Car sanctioning bodies are not much different from INEX.
They all have their ups and downs. As do any sanctiong body for any sport.
Steve
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After having a chance to run the new dirt tire this year, I believe it was a good move also. Yeah, investment up front, but much more pleasant to drive and faster speeds attained along with good wear. As far as the asphalt tires, I just was using Hoosier as an example as I ran them for years in my previous racing life. Sure would like to have some sort of tire with common sizes similar to the old BFG that we wouldn't have to mess around with cutting. Besides the cutting process costing everyone extra cash, it also significantly shortens life of the tire, especially right side tires, thus increasing tire bills for a season. Just my opinion....
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Mark,
I mostly ran GoodYears and Hoosiers with most of my race cars. The deal isn't so much common tire sizes; Those are available from most tire manufactureres. The biggest deal seems to be tire compounds. There in lies a problem for the sanctioning bodies. Specify a certain brand; Then what compounds? Specify a specific durometer reading. Then what brand, tread design, etc...??? A lot of sanctioning bodies require DOT approved tires. Many manufaturers have DOT tires in different tread (or lack of. ie: slicks) designs and compounds (soft, medium, hard. Get the picture?) Always a troublesome area for the sanctioning bodies.
Steve
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Steve,
I still think it could be done....For example, many of our area asphalt tracks have adopted a single tire brand and compound rule for the limited late models, which in this case is a Hoosier 800 tire. I have heard several complaints already about the tire being too hard. The area dealer claims to offer a stiffer sidewall for better overall handling supposedly, however, says lap times will suffer by 0.5 seconds. The point here is that everyone is running on the same tire, hard, slower or whatever. It can be done.....DOT or not, INEX will put there name on it either way and share the proceeds as usual.... ;)
Mark
BTW - I wonder if Jim's tummy is getting full after eating all that popcorn ;D
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There are several sanctioning bodies that have a specific tire and compound rule. The old BFG rule is a good example of that.
The harder tire compounds tend to last longer and save the budget racer a few bucks. I picked up a few of the BFGs for my autocross cars when people were changing over to the other tires. They should serve me well. Perhaps not as well as the Hoosier slicks; But I will save money in tire bills.
I wonder if Jim is putting a lot of butter and salt on that popcorn?
:D :D :D
Steve
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57x.
I agree the tire cutting theory is terrible! I would settle for a tire that only went four races if we did not have to cut it.
An engine program that is WIDE OPEN and out of control is the dwarf program, PERFECT EXAMPLE! It has been the ruin of Dwarfs for a long time.
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we have dwarfs here in the nh.me,and mass area..good program stock 600cc motors on good tires, a lot of legends chassis's... we practice with them and its a challenge ,those cars stick and are fast..the 1200 gets them in the straights but they zip thru the corners.15000 rpm. one set tires at least 10 races no cutting.
joe
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Dwarfs are ok for me, but I really like mod-lits. In my area there is a nice track and they get around 20 to 25 cars a night, but from what I hear is that the motors..RRRR..engines are built on KILL and no one checks them. So a top mod lite will cost a ton of cash
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Dennis,
Not all Dwarf Car sanctioning bodies allow "WIDE OPEN" as a norm. Some limit engines to stock and engine size. Some use weight limits to equalize carbs vs fuel injection. Tire rules, shock rules, etc... SCCA uses the TUSA rules for their tech for Dwarf Cars. They are very similar to Legends Cars, minus the fenders. Dwrafs are a bit more adjustable suspensionwise and most use 4 wheel disc brakes. You can Thank Ernie Adams, John Cain, Humpy Wheeler and Elliott Forbes-Robinson for the current Legends Car. For those that don't know Ernie Adams or John Cain; Ernie is credited with the concept of the "Dwarf" car. John Cain founded the Dwarf Car Company in Phoenix, Arizona. Humpy Wheeler and Elliott Forbes-Robinson borrowed their design for the Legends Car chassis.
Dave,
The modlites remind me a lot of my old modified. I do so love the look of the Legends and classic Dwarf Cars though! They bring back a lot of memories of restoring antique cars with my dad when I was a kid. Just something about the body styles.
Joe,
The smaller 600cc cars still race regularly around the country. The bulk of Dwarfs are using 1000 - 1250cc engines, anymore.
I think Legends and Dwarfs are fairly equal in speed and agility.
The lack of a "National" set of rules is a problem for racers that would like to race their Dwarf Cars in other regions.
That is what I really like about Legends Cars. INEX has a set of rules that are used everywhere.
Anyway...
Lets get back to figuring out how to work within the current set of rules and how to have fun at the same time. ;)
Steve