Author Topic: Rim Backspacing (Equal @ all corners) Maybe you can help?  (Read 8319 times)

Offline knight202

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Rim Backspacing (Equal @ all corners) Maybe you can help?
« on: June 22, 2014, 01:46:07 am »
Hi folks!

 I hope Im ok posting in here. I run a dwarf car, somewhat similar to a legends on asphalt. I have a fast car, driven properly its easily a top 3 car. The previous owner was constantly fast in the car as well, setting track records and running top 3 weekly. This IS a circle track only car.

 The car has always run 1" backspaced rims at all 4 corners and I cannot figure out why and how it works so well. I am hoping someone here may have the knowledge to explain why this works to me.

 I am able to get good left side weights with this setup, and im legal for our track width rules so there is no issues there. I figured the 1" backspace rims load the tire patch better but then again the rim hub is welded to the outer rim ring so im thinking it probably just loads the tires fine regardless of the rim hub placement? But i am unsure on this as well.
 
 Maybe this setup is only working due to having a good left side weight. I could run offset backspaced rims but it would take a lot of work thats not worth it for me at this time. Anyways, I thank everyone for looking and hopefully someone with the knowledge will be able to chime in and put these questions to bed for me as its really been bugging me since getting this car. Cheers!


So to summarize. I am interested to see if anyone has information on these questions

1. Do you know why having 4 rims with equal backspacing can work. Does this set-up offer something that a different backspace from left to right can offer
2. does the hub placement within the rim ring change how the rim loads the tire patch? 1" backspace as opposed to a 4" backspace rim

Keep in mind this is a circle track car only. Always on asphalt.

Thanks for your time everyone!




Offline Gimpster

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Re: Rim Backspacing (Equal @ all corners) Maybe you can help?
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2014, 02:59:04 am »
1" is pretty neutral and a good starting point. I only use back spacing for fine tuning at the track if a major adjustment is needed as the track conditions change. Yes the contact patch comes into play but not like you think... think of where your roll center is at, attach an imaginary lever to that point and think of pivoting it across the center of your contact patch of the tire, say on the right rear for example. The theory here is in weight transfer of the roll center to the outer point on that imaginary lever. If you have the chassis on scales with 1" back spacing, pt your foot on your right rear bumper and push it down an inch... note the weight and cross percentages change. Now place the 4" offset wheel on the right rear.... the contact point of the imaginary lever from your roll center to the center of the contact patch is longer giving more leverage... hence applying more leverage as the set-up transfers to the right wheel quicker (as a longer lever would). That would loosen the chassis by doing this on that corner. With that 4" wheel on the right rear, chassis on the scales, do the same experiment as before, push the right rear bumper down 1 inch and notice the scale numbers and their change. Obviously offsetting the right rear 3 inches out with a back space variable will loosen the chassis per weight transfer there according to the chassis roll center to contact patch leverage (weight distribution difference as opposed to the 1 inch back space). The backspacing can be changed on each corner of the car thinking of the lever on the same principals. When you get to the front of the car, offsetting the left front out will loosen the chassis as did the right rear offset but at different rates (of coarse) depending on the balance point of the chassis. Although it is on the opposite corner of the chassis and the effect is the same, backspace changes per corner of the car effect it's handling characteristic as the criss-cross counter part (front to rear, left to right) are the same.. the handling characteristic changes per weight transfer on different parts of the track. Corner entry looseness or tightness as well as corner exit characteristics change when the roll center leverage (weight transfer) per corner is changed.
 In Legends, in order to alter offsets, your chassis would have to have a base set-up in it that the stance was narrow to allow the changes to meet overall chassis width during tech after a feature event and offset changes being made. Many spring weight changes or adjustments can result in the same effects and be less hassle to change as well as not having to carry extra rims and tires to the track to make these changes. Like I said in the beginning... 1" offset all the way around is a neutral setting and rather easier to work with along with spring adjustments than fighting drastic changes imposed on odd offset rim combos when chasing set-up at the track by adjusting springs. Offset rims will work for the adjustments but you normally have to start the night with a narrow wheel stance to begin with for the evenings events. If you use your scales as a tool and not just to check weight numbers and percentages with the car setting on them, you better get used to seeing what the chassis does with offsets on the chassis while on the scales and effects by manipulating weight changes on the corners like jacking on one corner (say the left front) to simulate corner and weighting down the right to see these changes while in the shop. Know where you are with the offset rim changes beforehand because if you just slap different offset rims on to go to the track and try... you're opening a can of worms you may not want to fight. JMHO. Easier for the majority of 'joe racers' to start with a neutral rim offset (1 inch) and adjust chassis from there by tweaking on the springs rather than try to figure out the ultimate rim offset and serious differences in poundage effect per spring tweak. There is advantages to be found with offsets per roll center influence on the chassis though.... starting with neutral offsets is easiest (feel like I talked in a circle here)

~Gimpster~


Offline knight202

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Re: Rim Backspacing (Equal @ all corners) Maybe you can help?
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2014, 08:18:59 pm »
I just havent seen to many circle track cars running equal offsets...

 So what im getting from your reply Gimpster is that an equal offset car in circle track can work and may be easier to setup as your not accounting for rim offsets and leverage arms lengths and so on during your setup. I guess if I was equal offset and couldnt get my left side weight up I could look at going to a 3-4" on the left and leaving the 1" on the right to move the chassis to the left between the tire contacts and thus gaining left weight.


Offline Gimpster

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Re: Rim Backspacing (Equal @ all corners) Maybe you can help?
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2014, 01:36:36 am »
 In other divisions you will see offsets, yes.. Legends with a 1 " offset on the rear is pretty much the standard wheel stance width the width rule of the series. Over the past 12 years, there has been discussion of offsets and set-ups. Not a lot of racers have invested in reverse offset rims to compensate for the wider offset on the opposite side of the axle to retain the width rule, then messed around with an ultimate set-up for a Legend with offsets. To find more experimenting on that topic, you will have to dig through modified, sprint car, late model chat sites but when it comes to those divisions a lot of that info is not shared.. kinda like a food chain's secret formulas for their recipes.. nobody wants to give it up for free.
 Like I mentioned about levers, I meant the extended leverage of that point of the corner's offset and it's influence on the roll center of the chassis. More offset is like using a longer pry bar to pry something.. it influences the roll center more than the lesser offset and the roll center has more or less influence on that corner of the chassis and so on. Probably research offsets and their influence on each corner of the chassis and what part of the corner of the track that influences. Most guys are looking for left rear bite coming off the corner  for example and the obvious is to install more offset on the left rear wheel to improve drive coming off the corner. Now if you installed 3 inch offsets on both left sides, you will gain that drive coming off but shoot yourself in the foot going into the corner because the 3 inch offset on the left front will loosen the front end going into the corner. Might want to research axle offsets and their theory on sprint cars to get an idea of how offsets change a chassis to start with.
 I have all the info you are looking for, not being rude not sharing my files gathered over the past 30 years of racing but I have been burned big time after sharing the info  for free and wont go through that again. I guard the info anymore like the food chains do their secret recipes LOL. Maybe someone else here will help ya on the deep topic for free. Not being rude but just being realistic, I have to compete against fellers who read my posts.... just thought I would shed a little light on your question
~Gimpster~

Offline Earnst85

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Re: Rim Backspacing (Equal @ all corners) Maybe you can help?
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2014, 08:20:22 am »
A good resource to go to pose offset questions may be the micro sprint (or mini sprint) community. They run split wheels (EX. - LR 6" outer, 4" inner). They also run a solid rear axle and use spacers on the axle to move wheels (mostly RR) in and out to help handling.

Check out microracing.com for a decent micro sprint forum to possibly pose some offset questions.

Also check out Mike Dicely's "Rethink Dirt-Advanced Chassis Setup" at the below link. Mike is a mechanical engineer that has raced micro sprint for 30+ years and started Hyper Racing 20+ years ago. It has great info explaining roll centers and analysis based on his real life experience in the car. Now granted is does expand into how a sprint car's "winged down" plays into setup, but the info also presents  setup for non-wing theory which I have use successfully towards my legend car setup.

http://www.hyperracing.com/pages/home/tech_department/chassis_setup/rethink_dirtadvanced_theory.aspx
Chad Earnst #85
Central PA Legends


 

anything