Legends Car Counts

[jjdoyle]

Posted this on the Legends Group and also wanted to share here for your opinions

Low car counts is probably a pretty worn out topic in short track racing. But curious of the thoughts of those on this board to what they think is the root cause. I think Legend Cars are a unique breed. They offer the best bang for buck when it comes to racing experience / cost. But maybe I am wrong?

I realize there are some who will never be able to afford to race. But I thought the target market for legend cars is the working man / family. It has turned into a stepping stone for many which is fine. This shows the valuable experience gained from these cars. Just sure would like to see more cars out there.

[justfreaky]

Car counts and track attendance have always been an ongoing topic.
Track attendance seems to be up and down all over the country. Here in Montana, it seems to be a cycle.
Car counts; We all know it's expensive to race. Average family man finds it hard to justify the costs of racing.
INEX has done a better job this year to get the rules and info out there before the season starts. I'm pretty happy about that!
One thing that may weigh on some peoples minds was the lack of the needed info in the off season.
Another thing may be the seeming lack of interest from INEX towards their dirt track program. Lots of dirt tracks all over the country, not only about the paved tracks.
I am sure more upgrades in the engine choices are due.
Just some of my random thoughts on the situation.

Steve

[Legends57x]

I agree with all Steve stated above.  The one thing that really bothers a lot of Legends racer right now is the continued rising cost of the seal engine program(which has been hashed out previously under another thread).  As Steve said, more engine choices need to be made available.  A water cooled engine similar to what dwarf cars run would be ideal.

[justfreaky]

I agree with all Steve stated above.  The one thing that really bothers a lot of Legends racer right now is the continued rising cost of the seal engine program(which has been hashed out previously under another thread).  As Steve said, more engine choices need to be made available.  A water cooled engine similar to what dwarf cars run would be ideal.

The dwarf car bunch have their issues also. Too many different clubs, organizations and different track rules.
Fortunate for me that SCCA uses the TUSA rules as their base. There are a few SCCA rules that are required. Nothing serious. Tires (as with most groups) are always an issue as well. SCCA allows us to run Federals or Hoosiers.

Steve

[Earnst85]

I think car counts are dependent on the local situation of the clubs or tracks and their ability to network.

I am lucky enough to live in a hot bed of dirt tracks that are known for producing some of the toughest and quickest racers in almost any division of dirt racing. We have very good "starter" classes such as karting, quarter midgets, and Strictly Stocks (road vehicle turned into race cars) and multiple tracks to support them. We have a variety of support divisions including multiple classes of microsprints (1000cc, 600cc, 270cc, 125cc), hobby stock classes (street stocks, mini stocks, thunder rears), 600cc Modifieds, 305 Sprint cars, and of course Legends. Then we have the "Premier" classes like Big block and 358 Modifieds, Super and 358 Late models, 358/360 Sprint Cars, and of course our "PA Posse" 410 Sprint cars which always are just as fast if not faster than the World of Outlaws when they get here. I can easily count 20 dirt tracks within 2 1/2 hrs of my house varying from 1/8 mile to 1/2 mile, all of which have there own set niches (classes & race night).

With that said, Central PA is bursting with people that want to race. If they can afford it, they will get a car. If they can't keep up with the finances of running every week, they sit until they can race again.

I think the local networking that club members have done in the past few years is what has driven the car counts for Central PA Legends. Since 2012 (my rookie year), we went from averaging 15 cars per race to 22 cars last year. We also have at least 10 new drivers/teams who will be joining us this year. Our willingness to talk to those asking questions and helping new teams get up to speed has not only kept drivers coming back each year, but keeps the new guys from getting frustrated and therefore keeps them from getting a negative opinion of the club/series/ or Legends cars in general. I have heard it many and feel it very often:
"We (Central PA Legends) fight like cats & dogs on track, but are like a family off track."

I believe the drivers/ clubs need to "spread the word" to others to get them interested. Car counts will always be on the downfall unless you willing to show someone why they should race.

[justfreaky]

Good point Chad. Most clubs, or tracks, don't tend to spread the word.
What I do find interesting is that people who try Legends Car racing really seem to enjoy it.
You don't need a huge truck or trailer to haul them, they are very fast for their size and weight.
And the best part; All the folks that I have been lucky enough to meet are very friendly and helpful. Not true in some classes of racing.

Steve

[jjdoyle]

I agree with all Steve stated above.  The one thing that really bothers a lot of Legends racer right now is the continued rising cost of the seal engine program(which has been hashed out previously under another thread).  As Steve said, more engine choices need to be made available.  A water cooled engine similar to what dwarf cars run would be ideal.

I agree! The motor situation needs immediate attention. The amount of motors that have grenaded in these cars since 600 took it over is unacceptable and has turned many people away.

Chad you are right the geographic location I think has alot to do with it. Here in NC there are many problems.

• First no tracks really seem to compete when the shootout is in town
• Not many grown up racers can make the shootout races when also working a regular job
• Only one track (Concord) runs legends on a weekly basis

Its good to hear what the scene is like in other parts of the country. I hope we are just in a down cycle around here for now.

[justfreaky]

I agree! The motor situation needs immediate attention. The amount of motors that have grenaded in these cars since 600 took it over is unacceptable and has turned many people away.

Chad you are right the geographic location I think has alot to do with it. Here in NC there are many problems.

• First no tracks really seem to compete when the shootout is in town
• Not many grown up racers can make the shootout races when also working a regular job
• Only one track (Concord) runs legends on a weekly basis

Its good to hear what the scene is like in other parts of the country. I hope we are just in a down cycle around here for now.

600 Racing has not been used in a few years now. It switched to USLC. I think part of what is hurting the sealed engine program was the move to make all sealed engines an "in-house" deal. While I understand that decision from a business point of view; I am not sure that the quality has improved. View some of the older threads about the sealed engine program at 600 Racing/ USLC.

The tracks here in Montana draw a fair amount of Hobby Stocks (Strictly Stock, Pure Stock, whatever you want to call it). I think it is due to the low cost to build something you can put on the track. Towards the end of the season, those numbers tend to dwindle as people find out the actual costs and time that a race car takes to be competitive. Still; They help to draw a fair crowd (most years). We have IMCA Modifieds and WISSOTA Street Stocks and Super Stocks on a regular basis as well. We get the Canadian/American Series Sprint Cars about 4 times a season. Not a lot of racing here in Great Falls. There is Legends Car racing in Kalispell, MT. Also, SCCA Auto-Cross racing in several cities throughout the state.

[jjdoyle]

600 Racing has not been used in a few years now. It switched to USLC. I think part of what is hurting the sealed engine program was the move to make all sealed engines an "in-house" deal. While I understand that decision from a business point of view; I am not sure that the quality has improved. View some of the older threads about the sealed engine program at 600 Racing/ USLC.

I yeah I guess 600 is just more convenient  Old habits die hard. Moving the motor program in house for sure hurt the quality. My car came with a grandfathered in Andrews sealed 1250. When I bought it they said it had about 20 or so races. I ran it for another 25 before having it rebuilt because I thought it was time. Don't think you see that kind of reliability coming out of USLC today. Not trying to bash them just stating facts. If they want to attract more racers they need to reopen the sealed program.

Here in NC there are many setup guys.  People basically house there cars in these setup shops and just show up and drive. But this costs big $$$ for your regular Joe. Makes me wonder if this hurts Legends racing a little bit? Do people feel that the barrier of entry to the class is to strong?  To much work? To much to figure out? Will never be able to compete with them?

[Legends16]

I'm realativly new to these cars even though I've been racing for a couple of years. I'm a low budget racer, using stock bike motors and an open car trailer. I race against a few that have haulers big enough for a couple of cup cars, multiple cars, and motors tweeked to the max to last 5-10 races.

I think USLC has a great thing going here with these cars however this motor program is just rediculous. I just had a bike motor fixed up. Did you know that some of the bolts used on them are obsolete at Yamaha? I also don't understand when your racing a spec class, you can spend more to get a bored over engine. Every time USLC offers a performance modification it adds to the cost of racing.  Light rims, ignition systems, ect ect, it's just not needed for good racing. I hate to keep beating this dead horse but they need to get away from this motor if they want to get this series back to being affordable. USLC says the cost of this thing has risen over the past few years, well, when's it going to stop. IMO, slapping a water cooling system just raises the cost some more. Will it make it more reliable, probably, but the motor cost itself is a big problem.

A lot of people have asked my about my car and this series but when I tell them about he engine they start to loose interest.

[justfreaky]

The engines have been an ongoing issue for years. The down side to upgrading is the "budget racer" is going to complain about the cost to upgrade. In reality; You can buy a good GSXR, Z-10, or some other such 1000cc-1200cc engine for around $2,500. USLC likes to push their sealed engine program. It is hard for them to change engines (or engine manufacturers) without pissing off the "big dollar" racers using sealed engines. Also, tooling for engine rebuilds, learning curve, etc... Also; As with Dwarf Cars; You have to come up with a formula to offset the power to weight ratio if you open it up to different engines.. It gets a bit complicated when you open the whole can of worms up to different engine manufacturers and sizes. The only reason that some turn their nose up at an old air colled engine is because the newer water cooled engines are more readily available at a more reasonable price.

As far as bolts; You can find them at most places that sell metric size bolts, eBay, or just ask around. I am sure someone has some laying around. I have a 5 gallon bucket full of bike bolts that I haven't even had time to go through.

My thoughts, for whatever you think they are worth.

Steve


Steve

[Legends57x]

Steve....As you quoted above "The only reason that some turn their nose up at an old air cooled engine is because the newer water cooled engines are more readily available at a more reasonable price." That's exactly what I was referring to in my previous post.  Water cooled engines(of specified cc size could be used for Legends) seem to be much more readily available at half the cost and last much longer just due to the fact they are water cooled.  This series needs an engine beside the sealed 1250 that currently costs $5500 or car counts will continue to dwindle. 

Just my two cents!

[Legends16]

Thanks Steve, Ive got everything that I need, I wasnt in the loop as far as this motor being done up for me. Ive got friends that could've hooked me up but instead my builder finaly found them new and they were a pretty penny. Im talking anout the long bolts that go through the halves and into the block of the engine.

 My point I was trying to make was getting rid of this overprice dinasour. In my two short years of racing Ive seen to many of these motors go up in smoke, whether it be a 1200 or a 1250. My 1200 blew up the first race out in the used car I bought. It only had a handfull of races since it was done up. Im not blaming anyone for that, it just happens.

IMO, Ive thought making a switch to a new engine could be done considering the cost to rebuild these 1200/1250 motors is similar to the cost of a new alternative. Running two differnt motors toether and finding a way to make them compedative performance wise somehow, can be done with tesing, IMO. I would think giving people the option to run the 1200/1250 for an X amount of years while they phase in the new alternative could work, just dont force anyone to make the switch imediatly.

Just my thought and opinion. Somthing needs to be done. With these engine costs on the rise, when is it enough?

[Kevin Yeatts]

I was amazed to race in Concord, NC at the beginning of the season and see a grand total of 20 cars spread out among the 4 Legends divisions.  I'd expect that a track located where Concord is located would be Mecca for Legends, but it's quite the contrary.  There are a lot of Legends owners who take their cars to setup guys for working on, as well as transporting, their cars.  It's intimidating to pull into the pits with your little open trailer or your 2-car box trailer and have to park next to a 5 or 6 car rig.  It's tough to believe you have a chance.  The key in Legends is to just get your car and your driver giving you 100% at the same time.  Seat time is as important as anything, and so is setup and tires and engine.  If legal, even the most high financed team's Legend car won't be better than yours if you tend to the 4 basics I mention.  There is something to be said for being financially able to reload quickly, and this is what keeps smaller Legends teams from racing as much.

USLC hasn't really mandated anything recently to jack the cost of the racing up.  The new Wilwood brakes were a good deal, in my opinion, as were the lighter wheels.  It's just tougher to make ends meet these days, with or without a race car.  Worry about keeping your job, affording insurance, gas, food, etc makes racing seem almost trivial sometimes.

Promoters paying absolute dirt doesn't help either.  It's hard to tell whether the small purses are hurting the fields or the fields are causing the small purses.  Either what that blade cuts, it cuts.

Good Luck!

Kevin Yeatts - www.kevscorner.com

[NCSU_racer]

Well as far as Concord is concerned, I have heard that a lot of cars get torn up there. Being this is my first year you can see how I can take that. Wake Co. and SNMP are going to be my tracks this year anyway so its not like I'm giving the shoulder to Concord just stating what I've been told. We had 13 at Wake on Friday (up from last year). Unfortunately only 11 started the race bc the other two were involved in a practice wreck.