Tire test at ELS for new dirt tires

[joeracer22]

does anybody know if the american racer tire is going to be the same size of the bfg's? I was wondering if there was any word on what the size and or circumfirance of the tire will be?

[Gimpster]

 Steve ~

I'll kinda apologize here 'stead of in private....
She normally doesn't read these message boards and was under the understanding we were finally getting a tire. Just so happens she walked over and read the wrong post and went on... See.. the tire deal has been an issue in every class we ran since the '80's. Sprint cars, Imca or Wissota mods and streets, Mini Sprints and now Legends. She has been by my side for the whole ordeal.  Heck, I've seen guys run a set of BFG's for 3 or 4 seasons (origional durometer reading of 58). Way to hard !! As in other classes mentioned they finally came around with rules applying to tire compounds that work. USLC has always treated the dirt side as a step child.  When I first ran a Legend in 2001, I identified the issue with good racing being taken away from the division by too hard of a tire. Exactly what every other sanctioning body has faced and found true in the long run after lotsa heated debate. I discussed the tire deal with Darrell at the dirt nationals in 2003 and he agreed. When nothing was done year after year after year about it, we finally moved on. A softer tire will not make the cars that much faster as they do making the racing and competition more safely agressive. It will cut down on running board climbing and wheel hopping as a harder tire looses grip under inconsistant dirt racing surfaces. Ever run a track where one was dried out under the groove on one end of the track from direction of wind that day..etc ?? You are sure of a pass in the next corner and whem you dive low in that corner the tires are too hard to bite in a line one Legends width lower than the front car was running (just one example of many). An accident happens that could have been prevented.. yada yada. When did this discussion with D-man occor ? 2003 ? How many years later did they finally actually slip a set of real dirt shoes on a Legend ? I call BS on all the smoke that has been blown up our rears since '03 even. Us dirt fellers... they don't give a ratts butt about other than the parts sales supports their precious asphalt division these cars were designed for.
 Ever run a 57 compound racing tire This class is not for beginners on dirt no more .  Everyone had better get a generator, grinder and buffing wheel because this is racing rubber and you will have to scuff the threads. You will prolly see durometer readings in the 70's after they been heated up in a dry slick feature and cooled down. Now if the tire compound was at least 45 to begin with then you will be right at the sweet spot that everyone likes the BFG on dirt at... Hence a softer compound. Just because the thread is soft compound does not mean it will stay soft and wear out... IT IMPROVES RACING QUALITY IN THE END !! Not only from a drivers perspective but it improves the viewers perspective of the division with tighter and better racing. Anyway Steve... the above was a lot of heated discussion that went on during the middle of my last post on here and why I said what I did.... The water has cooled some on Legends topic here but not all the way as it is another repeat of what we have went through time and time again on other divisions.... where the topic at hanad and our view are correct as per past experience. USLC is too handicapped to listen to common sence and that experience. If they put Legends on a 57 durometer tire... everyone will be buying tires in another season once they realize they chose the wrong compound..... That is why I was mad last night my friend... they will not listen to experience and trying to help in the tire battle (the right tire the first time around)


~ Gimpster ~

[Gimpster]

Hi Gimpster,
I understand what you are saying about more car control making it safer, but I am not sure at what point the balance tips towards becoming more dangerous because of the increased speeds on the bigger tracks.  With the fact that I only race a few times a year, a sticky tire would help me get up to speed faster but I like the cars being hard to drive.  Even with the BFG's I remember seeing something about the legends cars running lap times close to the modifieds at Springfield, and when I tested my car on dirt the first time, even with mistakes I was running times with the sportsman cars here locally.  A legends car with a pull bar for the third link or a floating 4 link and soft tires would be fun to drive and we would have more control, but then it will tilt in favor of smaller drivers with the more horsepower, tire wear becomes an issue, stress on the drive train might go beyond what they can take, etc.  Also a significantly softer tire would force people on BFG's to either sit out, run in back, or buy all new tires to compete.  It's all just a big balancing act.  I like the idea of a tire that is a little softer than now but will not force out people who want to stay on the BFG's they have already.  Maybe the people on here, including me, are wrong about staying with a hard tire.  You have been doing this longer than I have.  Not trying to be disrespectful.  Just giving my opinion.        

Thanks.... and I am not trying to be selfish for a soft compound.... Just want the right tire the first time, based on experience. Suppose everyone could research the difference in tire temps (for example) on a 410 sprint to a mini sprint.... I'll save you the time... A Legend will not wear out a softer tire as fast as many racers think and as I sound like a broken record over... they will improve the quality of racing for the division, making it a more attractive division to compete in

Later my friend

~ Gimpster ~

[justfreaky]

Tires are ALWAYS going to be a big debate. Racers want something that will be affordable, last awhile (as tires aren't cheap) and work (somewhat) on the desired racing surface. The rule makers don't always take that into account. They are more worried about gaining contracts for sponser money, how "they" will make money on the deal, etc... Got to remember that these "bean counters" are not the ones out there doing the racing (in general). That is why I push giving the "rule makers" your oppinion. They are not going to learn anything about "average joe racer" on LN (no offense Jason) or any other "racing news" site. They need to get down in the pits and talk to the drivers, mechanics and owners. Whatever rules are made are always going to make some angry. Coming to some kind of compromise will ultimately be the best solution.

Steve

[JC38]

Gimpster. i know the rule book says nothing under a 58, that was for the BFG's. has anyone ever received a tire from 600 that was even in the low 60's. because every tire i ever got brand new from them were always upper 60's or about 70. because if everyone else was running on a 58  or a 60. im mad then. haha!  i just have one question though about the soft tire you want like your sprint car has.  How come when you run a 50 lap latemodel race and it gets alittle rubbered up, and you put a brand new tire on for the feature. Why is it pretty much completly shot after that race? and i cant remember what the compound is on the tires we run around here on are latemodel. but i know there not as soft as a sprint car tire. so you think after the tracks rubber up, because legends usually run close to the end, atleast were i race. that a soft tire in the 40's is going to last most of the year. I dont see how that is possible, because its going to bite more when there is rubber on the track, now if its tacky allnight. ok yeah maybe it will last awhile. But tell me how it will last more then 2 or 3 nights when the tracks are rubbered up. atleast were i race most of the time they are rubbered down!

[Gimpster]

  hahaha  a late model with 5 times the horse power and 3 times the weight. 50 laps for the pay which they run for... they have a softer tire on that ride than you assume.  I won't go into the math any farther for now. You ever run a red clay track ?? A red clay track that is hard as a moon rock ?? They tested the Legend on a 57, mega laps, and seen no wear.... Pretty much strums it up right there.  You ever set up a late model ? Way different than a Legend..A softer tire can be ruled in (here I go again) improving safer racing, better racing and still provide satisfactory tire wear making everyone happy.
 That high of a durometer reading on a new BFG ?? Hate to tell you but you got left overs.. ever check the casing date and run number ? Check where and how the tires were stored and were they wrapped yet when you bought them ? The last set of fresh BFG's I bought (not naming the dealer) durometered at 55 after removing the wrapping. We never were checked for durometer readings of our tires here and I don't chemically treat my tires.. I have another proceedure from back in the days of flat tracking bikes I used to get mine to 48 on the durometer. With those softened BFG's, I raced wednesday, friday, saturday and sunday night every week all summer with those tires for 2 seasons. Sold the car and they ran it with those tires for 2 more seasons with the same skins. A racing tire compound will be different but a 45 durometer reading tire would easily make 2 seasons on a Legend on the same schedule we ran in the day of that chassis.
 They are sticking you guys with a tire that is too hard for these cars at 57....


~ Gimpster ~  

[VMS Motorsports]

Gimpster. i know the rule book says nothing under a 58, that was for the BFG's. has anyone ever received a tire from 600 that was even in the low 60's. because every tire i ever got brand new from them were always upper 60's or about 70. because if everyone else was running on a 58  or a 60. im mad then. haha!  i just have one question though about the soft tire you want like your sprint car has.  How come when you run a 50 lap latemodel race and it gets alittle rubbered up, and you put a brand new tire on for the feature. Why is it pretty much completly shot after that race? and i cant remember what the compound is on the tires we run around here on are latemodel. but i know there not as soft as a sprint car tire. so you think after the tracks rubber up, because legends usually run close to the end, atleast were i race. that a soft tire in the 40's is going to last most of the year. I dont see how that is possible, because its going to bite more when there is rubber on the track, now if its tacky allnight. ok yeah maybe it will last awhile. But tell me how it will last more then 2 or 3 nights when the tracks are rubbered up. atleast were i race most of the time they are rubbered down!

You must have been getting some old crap tires. I checked all my tires last night. The highest I have is a 65, the lowest I have is a 56 dated from 2008 when they had that soft batch they sent out

[JC38]

haha. i thought you might say something about the red clay. only type of red clay thats on the ground from where im at has nothing but big bolder rocks in them, we do not run on red clay. and yes i know a latemodel has alot more horsepower and is totally different.My dad and uncle have raced them off and on since the early 80"s and still do to this day,well atleast my uncle still does, dad got sick of spending all that money. of course the cars have changed alot during those times, but i was just giving a example the same way you give with the sprintcar you compare to, they are both to totally different cars.    My only point and reasoning for not wanting to go to soft is im a 6'2" 255 pound guy, and lets say we went with a 40 tire and im racing against a kid or a grown man thats 140 pounds, you dont think he is going to have a big advantage? i sure do.If we could do whatever to are motor and not run under there rules. then that would be different, tell me what you think. And the BFG's yeah i see the date on the side. but we have never had a tire come to us in the low 60's. wish we could of got some.  we probably got the batch that was made first for that year and put in the back and we got them shipped out to us last.

[JC38]

i guess we were.  the best one we ever had was like a 64 or a 65 at one time.  i hate grinding tires, and i was doing it every week.   maybe thats why im excited about them talking about going to a 57. never had a soft tire like to run on with a legend.    maybe it has something to do with the humidity in missouri, its blazing in the summer here, you cant walk to the mailbox without sweating.

[Gimpster]

haha. i thought you might say something about the red clay. only type of red clay thats on the ground from where im at has nothing but big bolder rocks in them, we do not run on red clay. and yes i know a latemodel has alot more horsepower and is totally different.My dad and uncle have raced them off and on since the early 80"s and still do to this day,well atleast my uncle still does, dad got sick of spending all that money. of course the cars have changed alot during those times, but i was just giving a example the same way you give with the sprintcar you compare to, they are both to totally different cars.    My only point and reasoning for not wanting to go to soft is im a 6'2" 255 pound guy, and lets say we went with a 40 tire and im racing against a kid or a grown man thats 140 pounds, you dont think he is going to have a big advantage? i sure do.If we could do whatever to are motor and not run under there rules. then that would be different, tell me what you think. And the BFG's yeah i see the date on the side. but we have never had a tire come to us in the low 60's. wish we could of got some.  we probably got the batch that was made first for that year and put in the back and we got them shipped out to us last.

 When I set up a Legend for a bigger feller I use weight distribution as an advantage with the driver in the car. It is an advantage a light driver does not have if they mount lead in the car.  A bigger driver in these small cars has a higher roll center. This can help the chassis unload deeper into the corner and still have more bite recovering after the chassis does unload. A small driver can only mount weight so high in a Legend and placed farther back changing foreward bite characteristics that a larger driver retains. In general I look at your weight as an advantage in this fashion.

 My point is being entirely overlooked but you came close when you said you purchased harder BFG tires... If they make a softer tire rule you can run a harder compound tire. This opens doors in at the track race day tuning. Although the tire rule is low on the durometer you would be able to run harder compounds, keep a variety of them on your trailer for those changing track conditions during the event. USLC making the tire rule at 57 leaves us hanging and is most likely what they are aiming at for the goal since the company is asphalt minded in the first place

If they are looking to change the tire rule I want a rule that will suit everyone and improve the quality of racing for Legends on dirt

 And if the wife finds out I am still hanging on message boards she will prolly shut down our internet... hehehe

~ Gimpster ~

[JC38]

I tell ya what maybe we all should just  buy tires from hoosier for are local series. and everyone  boycott the nationals and see what they think. Maybe they would listen.   haha> doubt it. but it would be funny to do that. i wish they would go with different compounds and let you choose. because there is different dirt and clay everywhere, that way you could run a softer or harder compound at a different track or different track conditions, that would be the best way. thats what they do in the lucas oil dirt latemodel series. there is no tire rule unless they make one for a certain event. But you know that will never fly with 600. Gimpster good talking to ya!

[igotmylegend]

You guys are totally missing the big  picture here, this sport gets way out of hand when you start opening up the rules. OK fine you want softer tires, lets look at this as a what if kind of thing. lets say they give us a tire thats in the 40 range, 600 says that it will last all season, great. so we all go out and buy a set, all is well till that first guy goes out and buys a new set 4 weeks in and puts  1/2 second  a lap faster then everyone. there it starts, if you don't buy new ones every mouth, you might as well keep it at home. This is what is happened to WKA right now, if you don't come with at lest a thousand bucks worth of new skins why even unload. I for one was drawn to the legends because of the spec rules. Lets not let this get out of hand too.

My 2 cents

[JC38]

I understand were your coming from about the cost of buying tires.  but not everyone is going to be happy with whatever they choose. everyone races on different surfaces.  and everyone wants something different.  It really doesnt matter what we all say or want, its up to 600 and what they want to do.  Dont get worried and think there going to go crazy with tires were you have to spend a bunch of money buying them all the time. I think everyone knows or has a good idea what there going to go with on the tire. and its proly going to be in the mid 50"s range. i hope they let us mis match the BFG's the Feds and the AR.  because i bought a set of feds last year and have  less  then 5 races on them. so i want to use them some. because i would put the american racer on the right side and the feds on the left, but i doubt they will allow that to happen.

[igotmylegend]

Your right, not everyone will be happy with the tires, but it is what it is.I would like a one year old set to be just as good as a new set. Or at lest real close.

[Legends57x]

OK...This is my very first post.  Jim #17 will be happy now. 


I've been following this subject quite close and am not necessarily a happy camper either.  The dirt car I drive runs on a shoe string budget and this tire deal could go either way.  I hope like most others that we either the BFG's will be competitive or at least we only have to purchase one set of the American Racers to get thru an entire season.  If like the other gentleman says you have to buy more than 4 tires per year for changing track conditions or excessive tire wear, then I'm afraid the Legends dirt car division as we know it today will start loosing cars one by one and die a slow death.  I am hoping that this never happens.  I have a background of 22 years of Figure-8 racing prior to joining the Legends group 2 years ago and sure have had a lot of fun up to this point and I hope it doesn't change.  Only time will tell us all I guess.

Just my two cents!