LegendsRacer - Legends & Bandolero Racing Forum
LEGENDS => General => Topic started by: Vern Houseman on November 10, 2009, 05:36:45 pm
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here are the numbers on the federal tires.I have pics just havent downloaded yet
Federal Super Steel 595
205/60R13-87H
they are directional they show rotation arrow on the tite
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Is this the tread pattern?
http://www.federaltire.com/en/html/pdetail.php?DB=motosports&pdline=1&ID=1
I wonder if it would hook up better on dirt if the tread is mounted backwards.
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yepp that looks like the the tire, 600 was telling us they might let the dirt guy grove these tires to there specs
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Yea we will get to use them on dirt but not this year... Dirt guys will be on the BFG's in 2010.. Directional is going to make it harder on guys the 600 realizes... You can't cut Directional tires and then dismount them to ship.. So your going to have to ship rims to your tire cutter or buy new rims everytime.. Once u cut the tire because of the balance with the direction it has to stay in that position... They tried this years ago with go-kart tires cuz one tire company was using directional tires.. Didn't work and they were slicks... 600 did say about letting us grove the tires more but that is just adding another exspense to the sport.... For those guys that don't have a ton of money will also have to carry 2 sets of tires just to run a few times a year now since there directional.. Even though the Federal Tire may be a few dollars less it will still cost more in the long run....My choice would of been a non directional tire like they have been running.... JMO
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Did they try the new tires on dirt with just siping them instead of doing full grooves? It is simple enough to do for the average racer, will not change the balance, and might add enough bite to make up for the tread design.
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I am not sure... Thats all i have heard about the grooving ......
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it didnt have that much tread pattern
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no,the test where done this summer at ssp speedway just like they where delievered, we just found out at the nationals from darrel about letting the dirt guy grove them,but 600 will set the paturn...... I think thats why we dont have to run them yet, becuase these tires will fit the blacktop guys better then us dirt guys, we all know about that......
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If the link that John posted is the correct tire; The advertising says that it is a uni-directional tire.
I have seen this pattern in a directional tire, as it is supposed to direct water away from the tire in rain situations (pavement of course).
For dirt, I am under the impression that a block pattern is best.
Grooving tires is a science in it's own. A lot of trial and error may be necessary to find the pattern that works for a given track and/or driving style on dirt. I'm thinking that a set pattern, governed by a pattern rule, may not be the best option for dirt. I wonder if the rules will allow for some give and take in the pattern?
As I am basically a pavement guy... Slick tires are the way to go for pavement. From a few of the road course guys, I have heard good stuff about the Hoosiers and Goodyears. I think there should be a seperate tire for pavement and for dirt. My oppinion.
FWIW
Steve
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I totaly agree, BUT in the past years I have raced legend cars, I have learned that 600 is all about pavment and not dirt, so what else can be said , they are using dirt guys to get rid of the old tires and then put us on the federals hmmm my openion......
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The tire rule has always been dictated by the paved track. Without getting too political....
Paved tires and Dirt tires are two different monsters. Weather issues aside; Slicks work best for pavement.... Blocked tread for dirt.
Dirt and Pavement folks got used to the tire rule the way it was. The tire was more generic. I think the proposed tire may be the totally wrong choice to try to push as a compromise between dirt and paved. The tire that John posted is nothing but a pavement tire. I don't think that it would even be a good compromise with grooving.
I don't think Federal is so much a bad brand.... Depends on the intended use and the specific tire in question. Could be any brand... Really doesn't matter... A street designed tire is not the best tire for dirt. As we all know, there are compromises in tread design. I would propose that dirt and paved run seperate tires. Not my call to make though.
Just observations.
Steve
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I don't see much of a sidewall on this tire. Does this consern anyone else?
Scott
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I don't see much of a sidewall on this tire. Does this consern anyone else?
Scott
The picture on that website is likely 35 or 40 series tire. The 60 series tire for the Legends will have plenty of sidewall.
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If they do not specify one set pattern for siping or grooving, we will have some teams showing up with 10 sets of tires grooved for every imaginable track condition.
A different tire would make sense for each because after cutting down the pavement tires they would not be of much use on dirt anyway. I like the idea of using the same tires for both surfaces, but in practice it does not actually work. Two separate tires would probably be the way to go at this point, even if they are just two different patterns from the same manufacturer.
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These tires dont have sipes so, I wonder how much effect you would gain by cutting them for pavement. The old BFGs needed to be cut becuase the tread block flexed too much with the sipes ( these were all season tires) now these dry weather racing type tires may not need to be cut.
Also if the dirt guys can put any cut they want look out, I agree that would will have the big teams rolling in this bunchs of tire with diff. grooves and the groover with the big name will make a ton of $$$$ charging for is tires.
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If they have pretty big tread blocks, 600 should be able to come up with some reasonable groove pattern to allow. I would think a few sets of tires, a grooving iron, and an afternoon at a dirt track should get them something reasonable. Not crazy about having to deal with more tire prep, but they have the new tire unless they go to something else, it is what it is.
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Is this more like what the new tire looks like?
http://www.federaltire.com/en/html/pdetail.php?DB=motosports&pdline=3&ID=3
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Im sure, no matter what, it will be a comedy of errors if they try to enforce a do-it-yourself tire siping rule. I just hope that they find a different tire for the dirt...the delay in mandating the new Federal tire for dirt has me optimistic that things are still evolving.
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i agree with jim in hopes that the new tire will not be used on dirt not much of a racing tread. I think a hoosier tire would do the job but dont think that would ever happen.
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I have to give it to 600 on this one. They at least sent a set of tires to a really good dirt team to have them try them and give them some feedback. After getting some feedback, they then ask a bunch of “dirt guys” for some opinion. We all have opinion some good and some bad but we all have them. 600 could just said “this is what you have now deal with it” (which they have done in the past). We all know that they have no idea what they are doing when it comes to dirt but at least they are asking question before the make a decision. As they say, you can make some of the people happy some of the time but never all the people happy all the time. They are working and asking for info from us and until they make a final decision on a tire maybe we should call and give our input. If you haven’t called and talked with 600 it is kind of not voting and bitching about your President. OK, now I have to go get ready for next year.
Scott
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In regards to the hoosier comment. The last car I raced ran hoosiers and that gets really expensive because they don't last at all. Also, without beadlocks all the way around, flats are violent. They are basically tubes with tread on them. Just my 2 cents, you may not agree.
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It all depends on the compound used. Obviously, you can change your right rear after every session if you run Sprint cars like Joeys family, but Hoosier makes (or used to make) DOT tires also.
I dont care what brand, I just want something I can use, and the Federal they have picked out right now doesnt fall into that category from what I have heard.
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i was refering to the hoosier tire like the modlites run which comes in two different compounds i believe which is a medium and a soft. I think it is the Hoosier Dirt Bozz. Hoosier also does have a dot line of tire which has the dirt bozz tread pattern. Mainly i was trying to say that we need a tire for dirt that actually has a tread pattern that would work in dirt.
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Hoosier DOT oval track dirt tires are available in 215/60/13 in soft and medium compund. They also have a Midget dirt tire in our size, along with the aforementioned Dirt Bozz style
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Jim,
I like that tire and it looks like it would work. I still believe that if we "dirt guys" start calling Darrell he will listen if we come to a conclusion on what tire we want. He was not sure himself that the federal tire would work. He also knows now that he doesn't understand dirt racing. I think that if we get involved early enough in the tire picking process we could have influence in it. We should use caution on what we ask for because you might get it but I like the looks of the Hoosier.
Scott
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Whatever they do I hope they figure it all out soon and not wait until that last minute. For dirt if they approve a specific groove pattern, how would they monitor this?
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The thing that bothers me the most is having different tires for asphalt and dirt. With the BFG's, if I felt like going to the tar track on a friday night, I could just show up. I they have 2 different tires, thats not going to happen. Im not going to spend $400 on tires to go race once or twice a year.
Maybe thats the grand plan, to keep the dirt guys and asphalt guys seperate, but I dont think thats in the best interest of anyone.
As for monitoring and officiating self grooved tires, the only way I could see this is to, say for example, have a sheet of plastic with an 8X8 square out of it, and count the cuts/grooves/sipes inside the square. Could be measured anywhere on the tire if they had a specific "12 cuts per 8 square inch" rule or something arbitrary like that, but there is no way they could regulate a tread pattern if its up to each individual to groove their own tire. What if you sneeze and one sipe is 2mm off for 3mm on the third groove from the outside? Throw away the tire or risk being DQ'd?
I don't think 600 would put us in a situation like that.
I'm glad they are taking the time to decide what to do, but I was really hoping to get a couple asphalt shows in this year...guess not
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I think 600 Racing has a lot of good ideas but lots of times they go about it in the wrong way. Like you said, who is going to want to spend the money on a set of tires for maybe two races being either dirt or asphalt. It also hurts people who are trying to sell cars, like right now my brother and I are trying to sell our '37 Dodge Coupe. It is an excellent car which people have given us a lot of interest in the car but things are hurting us with the sale. The car has a great 1200 engine built by LHS Engines and it is very strong but it is an unsealed engine which certain people are looking for a car with a sealed engine because of 600 Racing pushing the sealed engines. Now the car has 4 cut BFG asphalt tires on it which are in decent shape but now because of this tire rule they are useless for whomever would purchase the car.
Why couldn't they take the BFG mold and just have another company like Federal or Cooper make it the same? So it would be the same tire, just different name. Then you could of used either tire on asphalt or dirt until the current BFG tires are gone.
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From what I hear is the molds for the BFGs are old and worn out. BFG want the big dollars to remake the molds. Remember the HR4 T/A is a very old tire I sold those back in 1990. So the molds were no good thats why there had to be a change or pay BFG more to remake them for a tire that they dont sell to the public anymore
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on other thing I know 600 was testing Cooper Tires too, does anyone here know if they were closer to the BFGs for paved and dirt?
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Since the tires will probably be special ordered with an INEX stamp, I would imagine that they will have to sign a contract for a pretty large number of tires. Splitting the number between 2 vendors would increase the price, so not sure if they will go for that. If they come up with a reasonable groove pattern on the Federals, I would hope that we could still use them on pavement. Not sure if it would be any worse than trying to run asphalt with uncut BFG's now. Hope we get some answers soon so we can be ready for it. Did anyone have a picture of the Federal tire from the Nationals that they can post?
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During the rain on Thursday's practice for the dirt nationals several of us had a group discussion with Krentz about things one which was the tires for next season. According to Krentz, Federal was the #1 contender for the tire next year. Cooper was close but they said overall wear was not as good so their goal is to keep the tires similar in times with the current BFG tire and also looking at life of the tire as well. He then went on to say that next year BFG will not be allowed on Asphalt and Federal will not be allowed on Dirt. They want to bring Federal into Asphalt as of Jan. 1st and then let the Dirt racers use up what is left of the BFG tires. In addition to that, the are thinking about letting only dirt guys put extra grooves into the BFG tires only for a better dirt tire. Once the BFG tires are all gone they said they will then bring the Federal tire to dirt or possibly continue with have a seperate dirt tire with another company.
I think they should allow us to run an actual dirt tire, pick a good compound with say 65 on the durometer so they last awhile and make a spec size on all four corners with an extra size option on the RR for stagger.
Outside of the tire changes I also heard there is a possibility within the next year we may see a shock change as well.
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A shock change? Are you trying to ruin my day? ;)
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That would not be very shock-ing ::)
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I have been hearing about a change in the shocks as well, since last season I think. I know we used up our spare one in April and have not replaced it because of a posible change. Eight usless shocks is bad enough we didn't need 9! My guess is with all the talk and ads for revalved shocks out there, they would be looking for something that is less prone to tampering?
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Going to an adjustable shock would allow more room for tampering. The biggest problem with 600Racing is that they are a business and have contracts with specific companies so when those contracts come to an end it could go one of two ways. Either the company would renew their contract and continue doing business with 600Racing as a supplier for shocks,tires,wheels, and so on or they will not resign leaving 600Racing no other option than to find someone else to fill the now empty spot. This is a problem with trying to run a 100% spec division and every so many years you will have things like this. You can't control things like this so you kinda half to just roll with it.
As far as a spec division this is affordable no matter how much you spend because a crate modified or a crate late model is a "spec" division. The only thing that is "spec" in those divisons are the engines, the chassis along with all the components are they same as the Small or Big Block divisions. You may have a spec tire as well with an extra option for a compound but you will still be spending more money on shocks, springs, torsion bars, birdcages, and i could continue with a list a mile long with options and how deep your wallet could get for those spec divisions.
Think about this, although at this current time it may hurt our wallets with the tire change, a possibly shock change, and this inhouse engine program that i dislike but in the long run everything will be the same with every car and you will know what everyone is running. In a "spec" crate division the only thing you have the same is engine and tires but outside of that you will always be searching for what is better. Are you getting beat due to the driver or are they running a torsion rear end compared to your coil over rear end, are they running five wide hubs, are they running 5 degree spindles instead of 8 degree spindles, what type of compression/rebound ratio are they running on their shocks, are they running a normal steering box or quick steer box, what degree spoiler are they using. I could go on forever with this list so when it comes to having a spec division and rules this division is truely one of the cheapest. But it still could get expensive if you have some bad luck but that is racing which sucks no matter who you are.
The only thing this division is missing to make it great is control, we have several greats tours and promoters but that overall control from the top is a little lacking which then it trickles down hill it gets bigger until it hits us as the individual. And because of this control problem it hurts us with the total purse we run for, the more we give up on purse we will never get back. Legends shouldnt be racing for $150 to win or heck $300 to win is even low, we should be racing for $500 to win weekly but when tracks see the lack of control and bullcrap that goes on they dont want to pay because it does nothing but annoy the people in the stands. When people are booing is looks bad and make promoters think twice about what their paying and those things they boo about could easily be fixed with the use of a black flag and enforcing rules.
So overall in my opinion 600 Racing/Inex has a lot of good things going for them but could still be better in all areas but i think as a spec division they do a good job trying to keep everything equal and fair so no one could out pay their competition.
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Very good, well stated post.
Thanks. We all get so wound up when rules are changed, especially when we have to fork out money for new tires, or wheels, or fuel cut-off switches, wheel tethers, etc, many of us forget what its like in other division. While we have the right to get upset if things a re changed or delayed for no up-front or logical reason, just remember theres guys buying 4,5,6 crate motors at a time, having them dyno'd, keeping the best 2, and selling the others to their competitors. Nothing will ever be perfect, look at spec miata racing in the SCCA and the Sunbelt engines for example, I think that 600 and INEX, if managed a little differently, could come back to what it was in the 90's
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I think that racing on of these cars is one of the ”cheapist” forms of racing there is on week by week basis. They are had to drive and if you can do well then you have something to hold your head up about. I wish 600 would do all the talk behind closed doors and then make a change good or bad someone will be mad just make a year or so ahead of the change. This “leaking” the rule changes months or years before they are changed and then all of you talking IF or WHEN or WHAT is bad. Heck I did not get a rule book until august last year so, I told the tech the last book I have said my 1200 can pump 180..:) that did not work but I had to try
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Todd,
Agreed the Legends deal seems to be the most affordable deal out there to race. Some of the costs in other divisions is staggering.
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Shocks, i would not look for a brand change. Bilstein has changed the shock to a crimped top shock, this will eliminate the tamperring. In fact the gentleman who did all the advertising has now offered 600 a list of his customers. We will wait and see. 600 and Bilstein have corrected the fault in the shock. I also look for the Legend car to pick up 3 tenths of a second once these tires are tweaked on and the set up is adjusted for the side wall difference.
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Granted they could not prove that any other customer of the shock cheat guy used them in events, but hopefully those people will be under a microscope going forward. Hope they phase in the new shocks over a couple of seasons or something reasonable.
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Yeah, me too !! Every year it is something new. Some good some bad. Change for the sake of change is never good. I am all for changes for the sake of safety ( ie braided fuel lines ) but I am not for change just because ( ie borla mufflers ??? ) Everytime I think I have enough put away in case of emergency like hitting a wall like last year. The rules change and I have to put money out. 600 is a great organization, but I think that for the very small percentage of racers that would mod a shock for that small amount of advantage it would give should not be a cause to require the rest of us to spend $450.00 on shocks when the ones we have are fine. Why not just tech them better, that's what the techs are there for. Just my 2 cents
Brett
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Back to the topic of the thread, here are pic's of the tire, complements of Vern (Raptor3)
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thanks Jim
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If they have decent tread depth, I am thinking that the might get a better bite on dirt mounted backwards.
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tread isnt that deep. and they are directional tires too.
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Unless they are constructed to not be able to turn the other direction under race conditions, I would think that rotating the other direction would let that tread pattern dig in a little better. The shallow tread is what would worry me more. If there is not enough depth, even grooving probably will not make them work on a heavy track.
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hey guys we did ran federal for 2 year in quebec ,very fast tire on asphalt when shaved but it is not available any more in canada , i wonder were you could find those in the states from the bf to federal we when from record track bf 19.79 to 18.90with federal now we are racing good year slick record when down to 18.10 at these speed were breaking axel (even the racing one from bert)so we had to move to floating axle adapter or a quick change.here pic of some of my car on federal and on good year
(http://i11.servimg.com/u/f11/11/18/45/10/pict6510.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1&u=11184510)
(http://i88.servimg.com/u/f88/11/18/45/10/2009-011.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=35&u=11184510)
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Were the tires any good without cutting them?
You have that left front tire off the ground like a dirt modified in the picture. :)
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How long did they last, like the BFGs or did thet wear quick?
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no, federal tire if not shaved are like trying to run on hight heel when shaved they are very fast and they wont wear quickly
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is someone able to tell me were to find federal ss 595 205/60/13 ?
we ve also try the sumitomo htr 200 cheaper on price and not that good on performance
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The day of 600's big conference call on tires for dirt, when asked my thoughts, I for one blew both barrels at the new V thread for use on dirt. Among my suggestions, keeping the BFG on dirt for now, was included. I have been looking at a lot of tires lately. My strong opinion and push, was for a Hoosier or American Racing tire for use on dirt tracks in the future. I also brought up dropping the durometer reading in the rule for a dirt tire to a lower number in 2010 and allowing soaking to reach this lower reading. I'll be honest, when Legends were introduced here on dirt, teching was not a real big issue and I did soak tires. I never seen a lot of premature wear even on dryslick with durometer readings in the 40's. I checked one of those old tires I used to soak and last week with a durometer, haha, it has hardened back up to 64 on the durometer. It was one of the last tires I ran in 2006. Anyway I laughed when asked about grooving. Pretty much said to go ahead and let them figure that out. Nother learning experience for dirt racers that would be. If they give us a junk tire to race on again, suppose I will have to change my throttle pedal pivot position again LOL
Good reading on here as always. Have a happy holiday
----- Gimpster -----
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so it is official that you guys are going on federal tire starting in january 2010
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where did you see that at shark?
Scott
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I thought that was decided months ago for asphalt, and the dirt drivers would still use the leftover BFG's in stock at 600...? Kind of a bummer for guys wanting to try asphalt a few times, would need to buy tires for one or 2 races. I for one wont cross over now
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The last time I talked to my dealer, a few weeks ago, I was told that the new contract for the new tires has NOT been signed. So, thats why there has been no word from 600, RRRR UsLegend. I was told even if the new contract gets done the BFGs will be used until AFTER the winter nats in Feb. Also was told that you will still be able to use the BFGs if you want. Some people may still have some that were new late last year. Now I hear that with a good set up the new tire will be 2 or 3 tenths faster, so you may not want to use then.
This is for pavement..
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by experience i m telling you federal WILL be faster than the bf but MUST be shaved
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are you only able to buy these from your 600 dealer? when I got this new car it came with a tire shaver I am not sure how to work yet. What will the cost of these tires be? what do they get to shave them?
thanks josh
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Tires are only available through 600 or their dealer network
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Not sure that I would try to shave the tires yourself when you are just starting out. If you mess up something it will be a $100 mistake for each tire you get wrong. Might want to play around with that later on, but for now I would stick to the experienced legends tire shops.
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anybody know when they will have these tires will be out?
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You'll have to call your dealer, or 600 for the double super secret information
:)
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lol tried two times today ::)
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I heard Mid April before they hit the shore ...then get them cut and sent out...MMMM I dont expect to get a set it mid May..maybe longer
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I have two sets of bfg's that came with this car I bought. How do I tell how much life is in them? they are cut already look to have a fair amount of tread on them. So these bfg's will be legal still?
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As of now, they will be legal. Check them with a durometer for hardness, and check the wear bars
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From a dealer
"The tire wear bar rule has been suspended until the Federal tires are available for purchase"
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Cool. Shave them down to slicks then and kick some ass!
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thanks....I will go to lefthander and pick up a durometer in the morning.
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They have to duro. at 58 or above, 60 is still a very usable tire. Take a duro reading now and then run them a few laps, wait for the tire to cool down and take another reading. It may read a little lower than the first reading because you have taken the hard skin off the top. The closer you get to 58 the better you will be
Brett
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They have to duro. at 58 or above, 60 is still a very usable tire. Take a duro reading now and then run them a few laps, wait for the tire to cool down and take another reading. It may read a little lower than the first reading because you have taken the hard skin off the top. The closer you get to 58 the better you will be
Brett
thanks for the info.
this sight is really cool every buddy really helps out allot.
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Taking a belt sander or angle grinder to the tires will also knock off the hard outer layer of rubber. Make sure not to use something too course that will leave sipes in the tires. You only need to sand them enough to get the glaze off of them which is not much.
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I grind mine down after every weekend, just like he said, just enough to get the glaze off, but DO be careful, I have seen people get looked at HARD in tech for using too coarse of a grit and having visible lines.
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well I talked to speedway auto today they said there not sure on the new tire. They do have one set of shaved tires there for $130 a piece. Now I just have to decide if I should buy them or just hold off untell the new tires come out.
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You could hold off if you want to, but the BFG's are good tires, and who knows how good the FED's will be. I think it might take awhile to get the cut right. And since the BFG's will be legal this year for asphalt you won't make a bad decision by picking up a couple. I plan on buying two RS BFG's myself this year. You only get about a season out of RS ' s . but it is all up to you
Brett
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The new tires, once cut and the set up are tweeked, they SHOULD be 2 to 3 tenths faster than the BFGs. So, from what I hear once the new tires or out you dont want to be still on the BFGs.
With the wear bar rule waved for now I am just running what I have.. They have about 15 nights on them and they neeed to be replaced, but not for only a few nights before the new tires or out.
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ya I have one set with 10 nights ,and one set with one night. only problem is both sets sat in cold garage over the winter. I think I will hold off untell the new tires come out.
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"Officials at U.S. Legend Cars International announced that Federal Tire will be named the official tire for asphalt Legend Cars racing. The new Federal tire will be available for purchase on April 15."
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thanks good thing I DIDNOT buy them other tires...
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Yeah, from what I have heard was that their going to let the dirt guys use up what is left of the BFG tires then once their gone possibly look into an actual dirt tire or try the federals.
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I was just reading online about the new tires. I don't understand what they are saying. Did they say that us asphalt guys CANNOT buy any new BFG's ? So basically if us asphalt drivers want new tires, we have to buy the Fed's ?
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Yes, that is correct. Be happy you'll still have tires to buy
All BFG's sold after 2/15 (I think that was the date) are marked with a "D", and are for dirt use only, as the dirt drivers have no other option. I just hope they have enough tires for the dirt drivers to last until a new tire is picked.
I've heard, but not confirmed, that 600 is out of the BFG's, it's whatever the dealers have in stock only, then dirt guys are S.O.L.
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I have a couple sets of the bfg's I will have to take a look ,but I was told one set is new other set has 3 races on them
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I'm setting good for tires, new D stamped and 3 sets new, not stamped
Ready for the season
----- Gimpster -----
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Fat lady sings... we will be on the V Grooved Federal tire on dirt. Word is that dealers will be distributing the tires to us dirt racers. For the remainder of the season siping and grooving, will be allowed, of them, until a sipe/groove rule is established for the 2011 season. My thoughts .. unfair to us who have bought new BFG tires for the season. We should also be granted the right to groove and sipe the BFG too. Also is unfair to the entry level sport racer/first time Legends owner who does not have access to groovers etc...
there are no more D stamped BFG tires at 600 racing. The notice was sent out yesterday afternoon from USLC to dealers. So much for having enough tires to support dirt racers for the season .
So much for dreams of a decent tire..
----- Gimpster -----
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I cannot imagine how many tires with various grooves some people will be bringing to the track. This will get expensive.
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Just got my order of BFG's today with the big "D" hand melted through the sidewall.
Gimpster:
Was there any indication about running a mix of tires? New siped and grooved Federals, but a BFG on the LF or anything?
This is going to get quite stupid, I fear.
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Yup, and those who bought new BFGs will be at a disadvantage
Wonder if they will rethink the situation
----- Gimpster -----
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I was hoping for BFG only for 2010.
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Well this should be interesting....
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Thanks Jim for the info. That is very poor planning on their part for you dirt guys. I hope they figure something out
Thanks
Brett
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Just got my order of BFG's today with the big "D" hand melted through the sidewall.
Gimpster:
Was there any indication about running a mix of tires? New siped and grooved Federals, but a BFG on the LF or anything?
This is going to get quite stupid, I fear.
We will see how the dealers handle the tires as they are handed out. A few weeks ago I was in discussion with Mike Patrick and told him that I would gladly run a season with what ever tire they wanted to test, plus not take prize or points, just test tires at my expense other than cost of tires and shipping. He suggested I call Ken Regan. Obviously I did not have time to call. One of my friends who has a daughter getting into Legends this year had a metting with Ken this past week. He stopped in yesterday after returning. I was on the phone with Mike Patrick ordering a few beed locks when Scott mentioned there is no more BFG tires at 600 left. Mike Checked his e-mail while on the phone with me and confirmed the anouncement from 600 at a little after 4pm yesterday. Scott let us in on the up and up for what the tire plan is. Like I mentioned, instead of going out and testing tires, they opted to let dealers hand out tires to certain dirt drivers to sipe and groove etc... for testing and finialization of how much grooving or siping we can do to make these v thread tires work and come up with a groove rule for 2011. Have you ever aired down a V grooved tire and run it on dirt ? They will cup and cup good with those long curved lugs. As it is, the curves of the thread are only correct for 1/2 of the tire as we need it for dirt, the other curve of the thread is bass ackwards. So we already have a tire that is made with half grip but will cup, and then we will not be at but 1/4 the grip that the BFG has as the total thread is worthless.
It would have been so much smarter for them to let us on a hard hoosier compound.
Shows how much US Legends cars cares about us dirt racers... prime example
Sorry about my rant, I thought they might actually give a hoot but they stick us with that tire (by far as you can tell, not my tire of choice)
One of my friends said it is time to go back to sprints, on my message board today, hahaha
----- Gimpster -----
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I think its pretty obvious what happened.
I'd bet there was never a plan other than this new Formula One style rain tire across the board. Their problem was the old leftover BFG's. They had a couple hundred tires sitting around taking up space, so they announced that only dirt guys could use them, which created a quick and heavy demand for the BFG's. Now that they are sold, the story changes. It was a sales gimmick to get rid of some old stock, and all us dirt racing red-headed step-children, myself included, fell for it. I bet they could have raised the price to $125.00 and they still would have sold them all.
So, now that the warehouse is empty, they can fill it up with Federals, and we'll rush to buy those because there is a percieved advantage since we can sipe and groove them however we wish...they sell more tires.
Then, about halfway through the season, they decide there is a certain way that you can doctor the tires, rendering all the tires we just cut illegal.
Then they sell some more tires...
I think I'll stick with my BFG's until they figure out what they're doing, unless those get outlawed because no matter how you chop up this new tire, there will be NO side bite whatsoever and the guys on BFG's will make the new "official tire" look bad.
What Federal says about the tire:
"Federal's extremely successful UHP, the former ss595, has been repositioned and renamed simply as the 595. Slight technical changes have been made by FTC to the tire to suit the purposes and take the abuse of drifting competition. "
Drifting...Thats what we need, a tire designed for drifting...
???
I apologize, as I am not one to normally take shots at 600/US Legends, but in my opinion, this was a pretty crappy way to handle it.
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I'll only be running my BFGs and have no plan on buying Federals until we can't run these anymore..
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I think its pretty obvious what happened.
I'd bet there was never a plan other than this new Formula One style rain tire across the board. Their problem was the old leftover BFG's. They had a couple hundred tires sitting around taking up space, so they announced that only dirt guys could use them, which created a quick and heavy demand for the BFG's. Now that they are sold, the story changes. It was a sales gimmick to get rid of some old stock, and all us dirt racing red-headed step-children, myself included, fell for it. I bet they could have raised the price to $125.00 and they still would have sold them all.
So, now that the warehouse is empty, they can fill it up with Federals, and we'll rush to buy those because there is a percieved advantage since we can sipe and groove them however we wish...they sell more tires.
Then, about halfway through the season, they decide there is a certain way that you can doctor the tires, rendering all the tires we just cut illegal.
Then they sell some more tires...
I think I'll stick with my BFG's until they figure out what they're doing, unless those get outlawed because no matter how you chop up this new tire, there will be NO side bite whatsoever and the guys on BFG's will make the new "official tire" look bad.
What Federal says about the tire:
"Federal's extremely successful UHP, the former ss595, has been repositioned and renamed simply as the 595. Slight technical changes have been made by FTC to the tire to suit the purposes and take the abuse of drifting competition. "
Drifting...Thats what we need, a tire designed for drifting...
???
I apologize, as I am not one to normally take shots at 600/US Legends, but in my opinion, this was a pretty crappy way to handle it.
No, that is not a pot shot at 600, it's a bullseye !! haha
----- Gimpster -----
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I don't know if this has been said, but looking at the Federal's, they look like they might not be bad on a dry slick track. I could be wrong (have been enough before). They look like they would be junk on a heavy track though. If they let us run either, we may end up with heat tires and feature tires. I know this is an added pain in the butt, but it is pretty common in the dirt world. I used to run with guys that ran dirt tires in the heats and grooved slicks in the features. Now this was at a track that always ended up dry slick on Saturday nights (Trail-way Speedway), I didn't see them do that at Silver Spring and only sometimes at Susquehanna.
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Here is a federal with side bite
http://www.performanceplustire.com/products/tires/searchType/searchByBrand/manufacturerID/242/productID/8031/tireSize/195_SLASH_65-15/tireSize/205_SLASH_60-13#prodAnchor (http://www.performanceplustire.com/products/tires/searchType/searchByBrand/manufacturerID/242/productID/8031/tireSize/195_SLASH_65-15/tireSize/205_SLASH_60-13#prodAnchor)
$73 free shipping
Just need some straight grooves across the center every few inches
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So did I miss something? We are going to run Federal tires on dirt now? I never heard that and haven't seen it on the web-site. I know 600 racing (dang I mean US Legend Cars) have been making some strange decisions lately but I just haven't heard this one yet.
Scott
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From Scott Reinhardt:
Mr. Bucher,
The Legends Edition BFGoodrich tire is the dirt tire for the 2010 season. However, at some point, they will run out. BFGoodrich is no longer making that tire. We (INEX & US Legend Cars) will do testing with the Federal tire on dirt as soon as we get them here. If and when the Federal tire is used on dirt, we will let all competitors know that it’s legal to do so. If they are to be run stock, grooved, siped, etc. has not been determined yet. If those steps (grooving, siping, etc.) are necessary, INEX will mandate how it is done. Competitors won’t be able to do what ever they want to the tire.
I hope this clears up some of the confusion.
We were all put in somewhat of a bind when BFGoodrich decided to stop making this tire.
However, we will do what we can to keep the competition as equal as possible.
Sincerely,
Scott Reinhardt
(INEX National Tech Director)
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Thanks for posting that Jim. I'm not confused anymore, and my anger has lifted some. LOL!
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Thats why I wanted to talk to Scott, I was getting confused and angry, and I knew I'd get a straight response from him. He and Darrell have always been responsive.
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"If and when the federal tire is run on dirt"... I like that part !!
----- Gregg -----
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I read that as there's still a chance we wont have to use that tire... ???
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I am hoping if we don't get a dirt tire, that at least we will get the cooper or the all season thread Federal makes in the 205/60/13. Both have more sidewall flex than the 595
~ G ~
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Thanks for posting that Jim. I'm not confused anymore, and my anger has lifted some. LOL!
Joe,
I was lit too... that is why my rampage went off about the tires. Here is what went down. Scott Beierele is getting his daughter Andee into Legends this season and I will be helping them on their quest. Scott sponsors Sammy and Kevin Swindell. He went to US Legends Cars a few days ago to meet with Ken Rean. I had recieved his new BFG tires while he was there. When he showed back up here, I was informed of the tire situation as per US Legends. Also they had told him they were out of BFG tires. While Scott was here I was on the phone as Scott was here at my shop, with Mike Patrick ordering some bead locks. Mike checked his email confirmed that 20 minutes prior to my call, US Legends sent out an email informing dealers there were no BFG's left. That is when the conversation broke out between the 3 of usfor what is going on and what they heard about the tires for us dirt guys. My next move was to make everyone aware of what is going on with our segment of Legends and possably get enough interest built up on the topic to get us the right tire since we are at a point right now where the tire we are decided on will be the future tire to race on for us. Remember, Legends Cars were designed for asphalt. We adapted them to dirt. 600 is learning how serious we are about the segment and hopefully will not be treating us as a step child division any more. My concerns about the tire is where they would do their own testing of a dirt tire which would be on Everham's track down in NC. The testing needs to be done by us dirt racers on tracks WE race at in order for the correct dirt tire or style of tire be issued.
Look, I am serious about Legends this time around. Last night my wife Wanda found out about the tire deal. SHe has been by my side in racing since 1986 (I have been racing since 1977). She researched the tire on her own. Next conversation she had with me was a threat to call Ken or Darrell and ask if they were going to pay for Gimpster's funeral..... She then went on to say we are selling the Legend and getting into 360 Sprints. I told her to hold on and wait to see what pans out on this tire deal first.
We are serious about our racing ... I hope my bichin makes a difference on the right tire choice for this class in the future. See you on the local tracks my friend !!
----- Gimpster -----
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I could be wrong, Vern please correct me if I'm wrong, but the tires were tested by dirt teams. In our area, it was done by Cooper Motorsports at Susquehanna Speedway. I think they tested a couple different brands.
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Rick,
I talked with Jason and he said he ran them and they where junk. We had a long talk with Darrel at the nationals and said that they would take their time and make good decision on a tire that would work. Time will tell. What is up with the 50 bucks to run in PA? I only run a couple of times so it really isn't worth me running with you guys if you want that kind of money. I don't run for points so what else could that money be going for? Have a great year.
Scott
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Scott,
I had no idea how the tires worked at the test, or even if these were the tires that were tested. I think Vern might have been there, so he could testify. As per the membership fee, it is mostly to cover the sanctioning fees for the tracks. These tracks won't pay a cent to INEX, so Don has to front that. Any excess goes into the point fund, I believe. It was mentioned that you didn't need to join just to run one race, but I think that was the limit. It didn't bother me since I plan to run them all and it's still way cheaper than the INEX membership, and they do less for me.
Back on subject though; Hopefully Vern will chime in with some info from that test.
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as for the tires we will have our hand full, in my openion it will deff slow things down, which will make some other guys drive harder and we all know where that leads too.......scott im with you about the money, I wasnt going to run for points this year, but if I run more then 2 races it made sence to join, Ive been talking with John K too and maybe something will come with the Delaware deal? also we where talking about talking our other cars and setting them up to drag race sence we live so close to cecil county dragway.and John will be in his new house in a few weeks, which hes only 10 mins from me.
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Gimpster
Hey I feel where you and your wife are coming from. I'm pretty sure this tire will cause alot of wrecks if we have to run them no matter if we sipe them, groove them or what not. After hearing about how the natls went last yr I feel that we are the class left out when 600 is deciding things. They are more concerned about the asphalt guys then us, which is fine. There are plenty of tire choices for dirt out there as you are aware of. I guess time will tell what happens. I'm not to thrilled about buy new tire next yr but I guess I have no choice. Glad I bought my H.A.N.S device this yr. So is this new legend racer racing around here?? See you on the track.
Joe
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Gimpster
Hey I feel where you and your wife are coming from. I'm pretty sure this tire will cause alot of wrecks if we have to run them no matter if we sipe them, groove them or what not. After hearing about how the natls went last yr I feel that we are the class left out when 600 is deciding things. They are more concerned about the asphalt guys then us, which is fine. There are plenty of tire choices for dirt out there as you are aware of. I guess time will tell what happens. I'm not to thrilled about buy new tire next yr but I guess I have no choice. Glad I bought my H.A.N.S device this yr. So is this new legend racer racing around here?? See you on the track.
Joe
You will like Andee, lots of years in carts and a few seasons under the wing of a mini sprint (Gixxer 750). I believe she schooled some of the boys in Williston, on the track, a number of times. I feel safe racing beside her. More than I can say about some of the other newbies. Awwww , Batz sold his car... mo dang ! Aye... I brought up the tire topic to Aberle. His solution, quote "Gimp, lets all buy thunder roadsters... they run Hoosiers". That reminds me, I need to scale his car once settled into my new shop.
-Gimpster-
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Rick,
Let me get this right..... A track doesn't want to pay $200 for a sanction fee. What track wouldn’t pay that when they get 30 to 40 cars every time they put the Legends on the schedule? That just doesn’t make sense. If a track didn’t want to pay I would move my show somewhere else. There are plenty of tracks that would love to have that many cars show up and would gladly pay the fee. That has me scratching my head. It really sounds like there needs to be someone in charge of this whole thing. I know it is only $50 bucks but I really don’t know how they can stop someone from running if they have a INEX license and it is a sanctioned race.
Scott
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Gimpster
Funny Dave mentioned thunder roadsters, sounds like maybe in the near future Minot might run them.
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Scott,
Don says the tracks won't pay. There are tons of classes trying to get on schedules around here and if it cost them anything, I guess Don figures they would just replace our dates with Classics, Vintages, or one of the numerous sprint series around here. We are probably the only division that has sanctioning fees. Don is the man in charge, I just race, he would be the one to talk to if you want more specifics. We all talked about it at the meeting which was open to everyone and this is what came out of it. No one had a better idea. If I was going to complain about anything it would be paying INEX for the annual membership or the price to race the Nationals as they were all higher. Heck alot of tracks charge more than that to run their track, Susky charges that if you want track points.
Also, the car count in our class was not earth shattering this year. We only had over 30 cars a few times and toward the end of the season we didn't even have 24 at Susky. That too might have influenced the price increase since the expenses stayed the same but it looks like there might be fewer paying.
Again, I'm not arguing it, since it is not my deal, just it didn't bother me since I spend double that in gas alot of weekends. Besides I think we are getting off topic here, maybe we should start a new one.
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Gimpster
Funny Dave mentioned thunder roadsters, sounds like maybe in the near future Minot might run them.
And that is why I am barking at the end of my leash... USLC already has a tire deal set up with Hoosier for for skins on Thunder Roadsters. Basically, the tire conversation completes it's loop. Dirt Legends = Hoosier tire
----- Gimp -----
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But I don't think they could figure that one out. LOL!
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But I don't think they could figure that one out. LOL!
Hahaha, I just had to do it !! http://www.runboard.com/bgimpsters.f1.t137 (http://www.runboard.com/bgimpsters.f1.t137)
~ Gimpster ~
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Rick,
Your right this is for a different forum but they have run things so wrong for so long that they chase people away. There are so many tracks that would love to have 30 cars, heck they would love to have half that. If they love those other classes that much maybe you should find somewhere else that would welcome you. I know that I don’t go to susky because of Todd but that is my personal choice. I’m not trying to argue just want to make a point that there are tracks out there that would love to have a car count like we have been giving central PA legends class.
Scott