LegendsRacer - Legends & Bandolero Racing Forum
LEGENDS => General => Topic started by: Legends57x on January 31, 2018, 01:20:09 pm
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If you haven't seen already, INEX just released their new replacement engine package, the Yamaha FZ09 3-cylinder, water-cooled, fuel injected engine for 2018. Yes, being a water cooled engine will greatly extend engine life and reduce frequency of engine rebuilds, but at a significant initial cost of $7199. Also, cylinder bores will be plated with nickel silicon carbide, which is fine as long as plating does not start to flake off. Once plating starts to flake off if is does, you cannot fix the engine by boring cylinders, you must replace entire liner.
Sorry, as I try to remain positive on all forums, I am sure glad I sold all my Legends stuff this past Fall and retired. I, for one, could not afford such an engine and I bet there will be many others in the same boat. Too bad INEX could not have come up with a more cost effective solution. Gone is inexpensive in INEX.
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I'm with you Mark. An awful lot of talk going on about this new engine. Most of it is not good! Most people seem to agree with water cooled and even fuel injection. But a 3 cylinder and the cost are killing it for most folks. I just don't get why they don't go with a more common engine; Say something along the lines of the GSXR, Z10/12, R1, etc... Lots of engines and parts available for them. We know that it is mostly due to greed. USLC wants an exclusive on every engine, or part sold. They are killing their own series! <SMH>
My thoughts, for what it's worth.
Steve
http://www.uslegendcars.com/media/news/legend-cars-international-announces-new-water-cooled-fuel-injected-fz09-legend-car-engine.html
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Its a double edged sword for me. I was happy to see this announcement initially until I got to the pricing. While I understand the large initial cost to make the switch I was disappointed see that the price of the engine is at $5400 alone. Its to much money IMO. We're taking about motorcycle engines, not crate motors.
Inex is still under contract with Yamaha and I get that they were in a bind to come up with an engine package that wouldn't dominate over the old one. Hadn't they done that they would have killed the series for sure. They are doing the right thing in "blending in" the new package and not changing the rules for the current package. I've been told that the 1250 is at the end of its production at Yamaha yet I am told they still have parts to fix them for a long time.
Personally I'm glad to see them go with something water cooled I just wish it had a dwarf car type budget. I can find the FZ09 all over the web for sale used from $700-$1600 all day long. After talks with Chad at Inex though, it doesn't sound like you can pick up one of these engines used and send it into Inex for a build like you could with 1200 (built and sealed to a 1219). These motors are the "European version" and no one has them in the states. I didn't care for that answer, how much different can they be?
If the rebuilds and the components on these motors are less expensive than the 1250 then why is the price the same? This motor is still in production and its one less cylinder, why?
It is what it is. I hope everything works as advertised, performance and longevity. My car wont see any of it until its used and in my price range. Ill just keep running my 1200/1250's in the meantime.
Eric
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The other problem I have with this announcement is the timing. Allowing use of this engine immediately can have a drastic impact on the points at the end of the year. With basically an unknown platform here (less power but less weight), if this combo is even .1s faster per lap (track dependent i'm sure), it will give the teams with big budgets an advantage right away. I think the right move should have been to put the engine up for sale, but not allow it to be used in competition until after this year's national events. After the season is when most teams will have the budget for engine rebuilds, etc, and can then afford to upgrade.
I know US Legends has stated that it is equal, but even their promo video said "it definitely handles better". Guess we will see.
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I've been following a little as to comments on other pages (both pro and con).
First of all; It sounds like the engine will not be ready until sometime in June. (I could be wrong!)
I think we all agree that an engine update is much overdue. The water cooled engines should help with longevity of the engines. With that in mind; Jim suggested that the initial cost ($7,200 for the complete set up) will pay itself back in the form of less engine rebuilds. I am somewhat inclined to agree with that. I do, however, debate the 3 cylinder engine. Both Suzuki and Kawasaki tried these back in the 1970's. They were incredibly fast and turned high RPMs. Problem was keeping the middle cylinder cool. I know that technology has come a long way since those days... But the thoughts from past experience with these engines still makes me rethink the idea. ???
Obviously, those of us racing on a budget are concerned about the cost of the new engine verses how competitive will the 1200's and 1250's be? That will be determined after some races with the new engine. Right off the green flag, the new engine is given a 50 pound reduction in overall weight. The new engine is also fuel injected and running a modified ECU. How fair will that be? Again; That will have to be seen as to how the engine performs and holds up.
My thoughts at the moment. Still trying to collect more thoughts from others.
Steve
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they said they are adding weight, if the new engine is 75lbs lighter then the weight should have too be added too the front where the engine is not where ever u want
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INEX is reducing the weight of the cars using the new engine.
2018 Rule Book:
75. WEIGHT using a FJ1200/XJR1200/XJR1250 Engine: The minimum weight of the car with the driver (as raced) is 1300 pounds. The minimum weight of the right side of the car with the driver (as raced) is 640 pounds. The rear weight percentage can be no more than 52.0% without the driver.
WEIGHT using a FZ09 Engine: The minimum weight
of the car with the driver (as raced) is 1250 pounds. The minimum weight of the right side of the car with the driver (as raced) is 615 pounds. The rear weight percentage can be no more than 52.0% without the driver.
Steve
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ahh, I mistread the orginal posting then, I assumed when they said it was lighter they would add weight too even it back up, so how many less hp is it then a 1250 are they saying? they said it would be around 130
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From what I understand, the FZ09 engine factory stock, in the bike, is 105 HP. With cams and ECU upgrades, INEX is saying 130 HP.
The USLC site puts the 1250 at 132 HP. So in that respect, they would be similar in horse power.
Steve
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so wonder why the weight break?
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As Jason replied earlier, as soon as this new engine package proves to be .1 or .2 faster, well funded will be switching over leaving all others in their dust as one might say. A good source told me the first batch of these engines is sold out and second batch due in April or May is pretty much spoken for already. So if you’re thinking about selling your sealed 1250 to switch over, you might want to hold on to your current engine for now.
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Supposedly the engine is down about 10hp on the 1250s. US Legends claims 1250s dyno around the 140-145 hp mark on their dyno, which is what they would have used to claim the 130hp on the fz09. A lighter platform will be easier on tires, and the lower torque makes it less violent when throttling up. I believe they may end up having to either add additional weight back, or dumb the tune back a bit. With the ecu tuning they have done, they should easily be able to change the RPM limit to potentially drop a few hp to make it more even.
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IMO The 1250's will probably be competitive this year. INEX and USLC wants you to buy their stuff. We can stomp our feet and cry as much as we want but INEX will ensure the FZ09 is superior by the end of 2019. I'd be willing to bet not single winning car at Asphalt Nats next year will have a 1250.
Dirt guys probably won't be affected too much.
The big teams have money to test and they have INEX's ear.
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As of today, June 14, 2018, I still have yet to hear that anyone has received their new engine package. The usual complaints about USLC being slow.
I guess we just wait until someone actually receives their engine, installs it and gives it a whirl.
Steve
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New INEX Update:
Basically, The new engine is still not ready.
There are a few being tested, but the engine has not yet been released to the consumer.
http://www.uslegendcars.com/
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It has been out testing at charlotte with jordan black driving for the last few weeks. After being setup professionally (it has a farbo sticker on it, so i think most recently by him), the car is running times competitive with pole speeds there. It is still a 600 house car i believe, so it is not the best of the best yet, and jordan believes it still has another tenth or 2 left in it (based on a post on facebook).
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Not sure where you guys are getting your information from, but three cars have the new FZ09 engine package tonight at Golden Sands Speedway in Plover, WI. Tim Brockhouse, Matt Allen, and Daryl Stewart. Time to open up the wallet guys.
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Mark,
There are a few different test cars out there. I saw the same posts as Jason. Jordan Black, was indeed driving one of the test cars a couple of weeks. I know he mentioned gearing changes were necessary. Also, INEX/USLC issued a statement earlier in the week that they are still testing and the engines are still not available for delivery as of yet. Just what I have read so far.
Steve
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Brockhouse had fast time and two of top three in the feature last night had the new FZ09 engine package. Looks like the tide is turning...
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I don't think any of us are surprised. Faster engine means more motivation to switch, which means more money to USLEGENDS.
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There are cars out there, not just USLC test cars.
People that ordered new cars with the FZ09 are getting theirs first.
After those orders are filled, then the new engines will be available for those on the waiting list.
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Yes, I stole this from Jim's post on one of the facebook pages. Good read and interesting insights on the new engine package
http://www.uslegendcars.com/media/news/uslci-legends-car-fz09-engine-package-first-impression-tim-brockhouse.html