LegendsRacer - Legends & Bandolero Racing Forum
LEGENDS => General => Topic started by: 83racedad on February 10, 2014, 01:20:41 pm
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Just thought any feedback? Max cc 1000- Suzuki 1000, Yamaha R1, Etc. Would you run against existing class or new class? Would you be willing add weight if allowed to run with existing class? What class name would you prefer to call it?
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What is the price tag on something like that in terms of engine... What would an R1 cost to throw into one of these? If it were considerably cheaper, I could see this gaining steam very quickly....Throw in a easy tech program, no seals, and you might have something...
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On line you can purchase GSXR1000 in the area of $1200-2500 depends on mileage & year, wiring harness cut $300, engine coupler $75, headers $300, engine mounts $100, misc. Under $4000.00 and last 2 years or more.
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Or a bmw s1000rr that makes another 20hp straight from the bike over the zx10 and gsxr. The bmw engine is near $5k for a car kit. Why anyone would want a cbr or r1 i have no clue...
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What would be a cheap motor grape?
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The reason for a Gxsr all the engine kits are available at a lower cost & can be purchased from a number of Dwarf car suppliers.
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The bmw needs to be outlawed if controlling costs are what folks are after. Gsxr and zx10 are best bang for the buck. R1 and cbr is 10-15hp down in standard application without spending a ton of money.
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Grape good point Go to Dwarf Car Racing under engines complete kits minus engine mounts GSXR 1000 R1 from $1300.00- $3500 again depends on mileage. Ebay prices buy it now from under $1000-$3000. Several years ago I purchased a GSXR 1000 from dealer that had one on ebay 1000 miles complete car kit for $2250.00 it was 1 year old. You still need headers engine mounts. Grape I do not know to much about the KX10.
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Note that this is a Dwarf Car / Modlite post and has nothing to do with Legends Cars.
As the cars are very similar in nature and replacing the FJ/XJ are a hot topic, Take it for what it is worth.
Steve
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GOTCHA STEVE!
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I have to disagree Steve. It has everything to do with Legends and as a member what direction we want this's series to go. Although our input means nothing it is nice to hear member input. USLC has a water cooled engine that works but it has to much durability. I say as long as people keep it civil let us know what motor you would like to see.
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Scott,
Dwarf Cars and Modlites have similar issues as well.
Engine size and modifications are governed by several different sanctioning bodies. Just because your car is legal in your area doesn't mean it is legal in another State or even at another track in the same area. Legends Cars have the same set of rules, regardless of State or country (Yes, I said Country) you run in. We all know that there are problems with the old air cooled engines. As I have said for many years; The only way to make a difference is to talk with INEX directly.
Steve
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Aren't we talking about a legends car, with just a different power plant?
Man, imagine water cooled motors lasting 2 plus years, and if you blow one up, you can buy another for 1200 to 2500 and throw it in.... How many more people would be interested in these legends.. How much easier would it be to build the class at your local track?
here's one that I know lots of people will not like....how bout a claimer rule on engines.... Say 3000. Think you're out powered, buy it and see. The guy who is claimed can still go out and buy another motor and probably have money to spare. ( just thinking out loud on this one) but it could be very well though out and planned if the major motivation behind the rules is not making a profit, but rather saving the racer money. I know about zero on motor tech, but could there be a easy tech to these to keep them in check?
Are the horsepower numbers comparable to th fj? Could they be run together with the legends now, or is there too big of a disparity? This has got me curious.......
What about starting a second class at the local track? The local dealers would have to love it, more cars to support. Those that aren't interested in chasing the national points, can just race, keep a few bills in their pockets and all is well. If you did it this way, you wouldn't have to wait on INEX, you'd just need to develop a very sound set of engine rules, and leave the rest as is.
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Legends Cars were derived from Dwarf Cars back in the beginning. Wheelbase, etc... are the same.
Engines in the Dwarf Cars have evolved to water cooled and fuel injected engines, 8 bolt and quick change rear ends, and so forth.
Some tracks and/ or clubs set their own rules. There are a couple of National sets of rules. Depending on where you race ; State to State and even track to track can differ.
Big debates on the Dwarf Car sites. Not alot different from what the engine issues are with Legends Cars. Tires are another issue with Dwarfs that vary depending on where you run. Legends Cars are similar; But the Dwarf Cars have more adjustability in suspension; Run 4 wheel disc brakes, dual master cylinders and other issues that Legends Cars don't have.
Steve
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I strongly believe that INEX needs to make a move to a different power plant moving forward. With prices on the rise, when does it stop? There are better engine options out there, better in every way so it would seem, initial cost, fewer rebuilds, cheaper rebuilds I would assume.
Coming from karts I’ve learned that too many classes can also be hurtful. Breaking up a small class into two groups isn’t going to help matters. Running two different power plants together can be done but it will take work, it’s not a slam dunk as far as making them competitive with one another. There will always be one engine preferred over the other when it all comes down to it. IMO I think it needs to be done though.
Not to be a buzz kill but Steve is right. INEX is not listening to this and to add they are under contract with Yamaha. We can all sit here and dream about what it could be but the ball is still in their court and they own it. Voicing your opinion to INEX is the best way about going about it, but I’m not sure it matters. Sorry If I’ve strayed away from the original topic of this post.
Eric
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Running a cheaper engine is great but there will be a tremendous cost to switch everything over. Running races where cars have different engines would defeat the purpose of a spec class. The U-Car class tries to level the engine disparity with extra weight and that is a cluster. If the engines were cheaper the car counts, in theory, would increase which is good but until the Yamaha contract is up we are all pissing into the wind. The Dwarf car deal, IMO, would suck with every track having their own variation of rules. Inex has a good thing going with governing set of rules. If we lose that then I don't think we have a good class.
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I run both LEGENDS and DWARFS.
I do have Suzuki GSXR1000 motors in a LEGEND chassis that I run in a dwarf car series.
They run about a 1/2 second quicker on a 3/8 track (they don't have the torque out of the corner that a FJ has but make up for it in the middle and big end).
Yes , they do fit right in with out any MODS to the frame and the total cost including the engine is about $3,000.00
I have run one in a asphalt car for three years straight without ever touching anything but changing the oil.
BUT
These are 2 different series and we go by the rules that each has, and if we don't like them, we can go elsewhere, but I can tell you from experience that each series has there pluses and minuses.
If people try and start a new series , it seems that other classes both suffer car count, even if it is a good idea.
In my opinion, the LEGEND series has been a good series that young drivers can get there feet wet for bigger and better things later and your average person can run and have fun.
I don't think the legends will change engines but maybe they will have a water cooled kit in the future.
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As has been said before, if you want to change LEGENDS. CALL INEX. Don't complain on an internet site and think anything will happen. Better yet, go buy some SMI stock (TRK $18.90/per share, as of this post), and when they have a Shareholder meeting, bring it up to Bruton.
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I do agree with Legends13, it's not worth calling INEX, as stated, we all know the answer... seems it would make more sense to start something locally, and see if it will grow. If it does fine, if not, you've still got the current legends. INEX/ USLC being a business would not put up too much of a fight, they will still sell cars, parts to something like this. If they did fight it, what could they do if it were a local track and a local class. If the powers won't listen, just do it on your own.
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I never said it isn't worth it. In fact I said the very opposite. Instead of whining about it on an internet forum, make a phone call. Buy shares in SMI and go to a shareholder meeting. do something. This is a publicly traded company and anyone with $19 can go buy a share of it.
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A cost effective dwarf car series with the $3000 water cooled engines lasting 3 yeasrs on asphalt sounds interesting to me. Can't imagine how long same set up would last on dirt. And I wouldn't mind getting away from fiberglass body parts as aluminum body parts last much longer, are much easier to work with, and require no painting for the most part.
Hmmmm....got me thinking....Jim and I need to start a dwarf car class.... ::)
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This is a publicly traded company and anyone with $19 can go buy a share of it.
What, my stocks are worth less than I paid for them 20 years ago....
Oh wait, I knew that.
Randy - RPM
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You will get no where with them on that issue they don't want to change the motors in the cars. Your best option as previously spoken is to start your own series and honestly it'd probley be a success in your area an possible catch on in other areas. There's a major window for improvement with these cars really like your idea make it happen a lot of guys are looking for a better way to race without INEX
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Buy shares in a company that is continually decreasing in value, and we all agree here is heading in a direction that is not great for the racers..... So i can talk to them.... That sounds like a brilliant plan...... Just bury our heads and follow INEX blindly if they won't listen to their own clientel....another brilliant idea....
No one is whining,.... I don't want to talk to INEX because their underlying goal is to make a profit for SMI, not set up a system to help us save money. I honestly feel my time is better spent here on this "Internet forum" where we are talking about doing something that they are unwilling to do....look at ways to save the racers money....plain and simple..
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A cost effective dwarf car series with the $3000 water cooled engines lasting 3 yeasrs on asphalt sounds interesting to me. Can't imagine how long same set up would last on dirt. And I wouldn't mind getting away from fiberglass body parts as aluminum body parts last much longer, are much easier to work with, and require no painting for the most part.
Hmmmm....got me thinking....Jim and I need to start a dwarf car class.... ::)
Nope, I'm going the opposite direction next...midgets
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Midgets? Now there's a division where they spend between $34,000 - $72,000 just for an engine. I assume you're banking on winning the lottery... ;D
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Splintering is not really the answer. An sanctioning body I know of refused to listen to their constituents, they walked and created several different sanction bodies. They still aren't because the one thing that the First Sanctioning body, and INEX, was have one set of rules for everyone to follow. The problem with them, as with INEX, was teching or rather the lack of. I know I like the idea that I can go anywhere in the US to race under the same rules that I race with at home, I don't have to change anything. Now, how do we get INEX to hear us? Has anyone tried to get representatives from the different regions to band together to approach INEX with grievances/suggestions ? A competition committee per say. Just my thoughts here.
Robert
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I've recommended competition committee's, separate for dirt, asphalt, and road course. Regional directors instead of just the mothership.
Nobody listens, but that could be because it is me, the bastard child of Satan.
Splitting up works real good...anybody remember the IRL/Cart debacle?
There are 2 successful ways to go about change:
1)Work with the current powers that be, in a non-confrontational manner, as hard as it may be, or
2)Have the money, tracks, money, leadership, money, tech training, money, and money to actually start your own national sanctioning body
Option 1 is the most realistic, unless you guys have harvested the seeds of the great and wonderful money tree.
The biggest draw for many of us is the fact that I can take my little car, hook up the trailer to my Tahoe, and race in Wisconsin, North Dakota, Texas, Iowa, Pennsylvania...anywhere, and not have to have a rule book for each and every track and $50,000 in spare parts along with me to change my car to fit the rules of that one track before I race, wreck out, and get $40.
If you guys want to actually get together, write something up, have an online petition set-up, and get that to USLC, I believe that would be your best option.
Just my opinion
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Nobody listens, but that could be because it is me, the bastard child of Satan.
Well, that would explain my ears burning when I use those earbuds you sold me. :D <jk>
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INEX/USLC would be smart to form a "racers council" so to speak with car owners from various regions of the country participating. At the very least it would be something they could point to and say "we listen to our customers/racers."
A lack of accurate information and a plethora of mis-information has always been a problem with USLC and their national customer base, IMO.
MT
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INEX/USLC would be smart to form a "racers council" so to speak with car owners from various regions of the country participating. At the very least it would be something they could point to and say "we listen to our customers/racers."
A lack of accurate information and a plethora of mis-information has always been a problem with USLC and their national customer base, IMO.
MT
Great post! Couldn’t agree more!
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Now this is productive conversation. Let's put together some thoughts. If we can convince them, INEX, that we can help increase their bottom line by decreasing the prices on some things and with that increasing the car count, I cannot for the life of me see where they would not be willing to listen. How about cutting the states up into districts, just as WKA does, and have a Rep from each work together to come up with ideas, from feedback from their members, on ways to increase and maintain the car count. We also need to get the local tracks that we race at to recognize that most of the time we are the premier class running at their track and that we are the ones bringing in the money. They too can help with getting INEX to listen.
Just some thoughts, who else?
Robert
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I see and appreciate your concept Robert, but have yet to see it work.
I assume you are meaning to have an owner or driver as the rep, not someone from USLC, because they will not hire someone to do this.
Politics get in the way, and the owner driver reps get all ego driven with swollen heads full of the "power" they have benn given, then they tend to push for what they want, not the group. Then the backstabbing starts, and everyone hates everyone else.
I'd rather we all keep hating on USLC, and the group as a whole get along.
Just my opinion
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Buy shares in a company that is continually decreasing in value, and we all agree here is heading in a direction that is not great for the racers..... So i can talk to them.... That sounds like a brilliant plan...... Just bury our heads and follow INEX blindly if they won't listen to their own clientel....another brilliant idea....
No one is whining,.... I don't want to talk to INEX because their underlying goal is to make a profit for SMI, not set up a system to help us save money. I honestly feel my time is better spent here on this "Internet forum" where we are talking about doing something that they are unwilling to do....look at ways to save the racers money....plain and simple..
I highlited the important parts of what you said. You would rather get on here and TALK ABOUT DOING SOMETHING, than to actually pick up a phone, AND DO SOMETHING. How much money will you spend for a "go-fast" part? But you feel buying a $19 share of a company is not worth it? Yes, my example of buying 1 share is silly, but it is also true.
The whole point is everyone whines and complains, and nothing gets done. Just like politics today. This is an epidemic in our country. Everyone wants to get paid, but no one wants to work. CHANGE TAKES ACTION.
I'm not mad at anyone, but this topic comes up every time there is a change at USLC/INEX. Everyone get mad, spews all kinds of trash, and nothing happens. EXCEPT, something does happen. Joe Racer, who is interested in getting into Legends does a google search for Legend Cars. What do they find? They find this board, or the Yahoo group, or others, and they start reading, because they want to learn before buying a car. They read that the series is horrible, expensive, there is no tech, USLC doesn't listen, USLC doesn't care, etc.... and the new guy decides not to buy a car. Car counts go down, prices go up, and repeat.....
We all are ambassadors for a sport we love. Quit complaining about it, and help build it!!! Word of mouth works both ways.
Oh and one more thing, 10 years ago, TRK (Speedway Motorsports) was $13.30/share. Today, they are $19.20/share. That is over 30% increase in share price for 10 years. Pretty good if you ask me. Not sure where you see that as continually decreasing value. And they pay a dividend.... https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:TRK
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Very valid post Brad.
Only thing I will comment on is the stock value.
Yes, it was $13.30 at the end of 2008, but for years prior to that, it was trading in the $37-$40/share range.
That's a big drop in value over 16 months from Summer of 2007 to the winter of 2008.
Maybe that's what the long tern shareholders like Randy are referring to.
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For sure. But almost every stock tanked in 2008. And nice thing about TRK, is they pay a dividend.
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Brad,
Relax, I feel as if I am at a rally reading your post......
Listen, you keep talking about doing something, that is exactly what this thread is about, How to begin to do something.... How do you think change happens? When enough people are upset about something, then communicate, then act..... I think you are seeing the beginning of that process right now. You want me to pick up the phone and "do something"? Isn't picking up the phone and " just talking" to INEX about doing something the same thing that you see as so counterproductive? Again, on this site there is an audience that wants change, has great ideas, and sees the need to move forward in a way to help the racer and this series.... That is worth talking about, and these are the people worth talking to....
I am truly sorry if a prospective racer googles "legends" and reads that I am upset that the engines cost 6300 when there are comparable options for half the cost. At least a prospective racer will know the whole picture before jumping in.... I'm not going to lie to anyone who asks if I think the engines are getting out of hand cost wise. I have done plenty to help promote this sport. In three years myself and a few others have started this class at our track, and now we have 13-15 cars on a weekly basis. I don't say that to brag, or try to take more credit than I deserve, but I do feel I am an ambassador to this sport.... But if there is something that can make it better yet, and ways to do that,we need to look at it. That is what is BEING DONE right here.....
Let's get back to the regularly scheduled program here... There are lots of good ideas and discussions here about how to fix this problem, and hopefully move in the right direction. Different engine costs, regional committies, etc. I'm done with this section about "Whining" and DO SOMETHING...... let's just discuss what ideas will work, and what can fix this problem.