LegendsRacer - Legends & Bandolero Racing Forum
LEGENDS => General => Topic started by: thunder938 on January 09, 2008, 01:05:25 pm
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I was wondering what type of oil cooler set up do most people run. A 2 circuit system with 2 coolers or do you tie them together and run 1 circuit / cooler system? And what do you think about one or the other set up.
Thanks, Dave
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This from KevsCorner:
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Ya, I have that. The thing is that you MUST have the low side psi shimmed up to match the psi of the high psi side ( from the rear of the motor) The line from the oil pan is only 28 psi and the rear of the motor at the filter is like 65psi. If the lines are tied and the psi is that far off...well BOOM. I dont need that now. I have the 2 tie lines tie to gether now, but due to a question on my new motor if that work was done to the oil pump I may go to the 2 cooler system to be safe. We have guys in the area that run both ways.
Dave
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On my car I run the 3 pass Setrab cooler with the Hank Scott filter setup and a smaller Setrab cooler on my top end oiler.
Geoff
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Ok bought a used engine from a guy who said it was a good engine. Put it in the car this winter , started it up with the stock oil filter cover on it and just a loop in and out of the oil pan. 80 lbs oil pressure cold , checked compresion and I had 150 after about only 10 minutes of run time so I figured it was an ok engine. Took it out of the car , took the car all apart and put it back together. Installed a small setrab oil cooler from the oil pan with 8an lines , a remoted oil filter adaptor with a line to my filter, then from there to my larger setrab oil cooler and back to the oil filter adaptor. Finished the car up saturday afternoon all but the body, so I rolled it outside and started it up and only had 20lbs oil pressure. Ran it for about 10 minutes shut it off , did alot of thinking, and figured out that the oil lines on the remote oil filter adaptor were wrong , so I changed them to the rite way and started it back up and still only 20 lbs oil pressure. So next I changed the oil filter and still 20lbs oil pressure. So last night I took all the oil lines, coolers, remote oil filter adaptor off the engine. I looped in and out of the bottom of the oil pan w/ 8 an oil line and reinstalled stock yamaha oil filter cover w/ no filter back on and started the engine. 80 lbs oil pressure rite away. So then I hooked up the small setrab oil cooler to the oil pan and started the engine and had 80 lbs oil pressure. Next I removed the stock oil filter cover and installed one the remote oil filter adaptors and ran a 8 an line to the oil filter ( fram) and came rite back to the in side of the adaptor. Started the engine and only had 20lbs oil pressure. So I disconnected the lines to and from the oil filter and ran lines to and from the larger setrab oil cooler and started the engine and still only had 20 lbs oil pressure. Then I disconnected the oil cooler and just looped out of the oil filter adaptor and rite back in , started the engine and still only 20 lbs oil pressure. Removed the remote oil filter adaptor, re- installed the stock yamaha oil filter cover and the oil pressure went rite back to 80 lbs. What do think ??
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If you motor is stock, or set up to run 2 sep. oil systems you can not tie the line out of the front of the pan and the out from the back of the motor together. The oil system in these motors has 2 "sides"
1) the low psi side is from the pan at about 25 psi and is made for the cooler that is on the bike.
2) the high psi side is the side that pulls oil from the pan to the filter then the oil is used in the motor about 65 -70 psi
If you tie this 2 systems together, like a lot do, with out shimming the psi valve in the low side it will cause that low psi to show. this will blow up. There is nothing wrong with having 2 cooler and 2 sep oil systems, if that what the builder set the motor up for. I had a sealed motor that broke and it had a tied together system, but my new open motor is setup to have the 2 sep systems.
System 1: ft hole on the pan to cooler then return to rear hole of pan ( on the side) this would be the low psi side
System 2: Back of motor to filter then cooler then return to rear of motor, high psi side
Dave
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Couldnt have said it nearly as crisp and clean as that, great explanation Dave
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I am going to have to take a look at mine. I ran mine last year with about 25 PSI when I headed out on the track. I have no signs of wear at all but I am sure mine is hooked up wrong looking at this thread.
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So I have 2 small Setrab oil coolers running together. What is this shim you are talking about?
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To find the shim you would have to remove the oil pan and see if the psi relief valves have been shimmed. On my new motor my builder shims the high psi side to up the psi, but does not shim the low side. ( again I run 2 coolers and 2 sep systems)
Dave
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I just installed a Hank Scott system with remote oil filter and two oil coolers. One oil cooler for the main oiling system and one for the top end oiler. with a 67psi result. The guy that only gets 20psi did not shim the low pressure relief valve in the oil pan. If you don't shim it you will be back feeding the low pressure stage of with the oil pump with high pressure side and this WILL destroy the motor! The motors internal clearances are not designed to run at 20psi. You need to remove the pan and pull the pressure relief valve that is in the pan (NOT the one in the motor) out and Shim it. The shimming process is that you first remove the oil pan, then remove the pressure relief valve from the pan. Then remove the cotter pin from the valve, then you remove the cup that was up against the cotter pin then the spring and finally the lower cup. You will need to put 0.090" worth of shims in the recess of the bottom cup.(approx 2 #6 washers from the hardware store) Reassemble the whole thing and you will make 60-70 psi which the other pressure relief valve in the motor is set for. The shimming basically increases the spring pressure of that pressure relief valve causing it to open at a high pressure.
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I have an open motor, but for those out there with a sealed motor, is the shimming done from the factory?
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good?, I run a open now and my last motor was a sealed from Joyce. Most of the sealed builders did shim the valve, but does 600 on a new motor? on a rebuild? The owner of the motor would have to work with his/her dealer to make sure. It may be something that is diff. on the base motor to a topend motor.
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k, I am very confused. The diagram on this thread deoesn't seem to match up with the breakaway motor on 600's site. I think I need to go look at my car but I am at work :-). The diagram shows blocking off lines but the one on 600 shows it running back to the side of the motor. I see and in and out from the original oil filter which has the cap for the remote system. I see and in and out on the side of the motor. What are the ones that are being referred to in the oil pan? If theses are not touched with a temote system and coolers why is this where the shim needs to go? I may have missed something completely
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RB,
The diagram I posted is for a single oil cooler and remote oil filter, run directly from where the oil filter normally mounts. I belive I got that diagram from Loosenuts Racing or Little Cars. Dave (Thunder) has enlightened me as to the better way to do it. Dave explains it pretty well.
Shimming the oil pump valve spring has been an old, and long standing tradition to improve oil pressure. High volume, high pressure, pumps can get expensive. Shawn (nhmcclure) gives a good explanation as to how best to do this; and save a bunch of money.
Sealed or unsealed engines............. I don't have any answers on that as I am not using an INEX/600 Racing engine in my build. That will be something that will have to be asked of the engine builder.
Hope that claers a little of that up for you.
Steve
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Can the oil pan be removed with the engine in the car to get access to whatever it is that needs shimmed?
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Should be able to.
Unless there is something that I am not aware of that prohibits that.
Steve
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I didnt mix the two outlets or inlet together at all. I have the lower oil pressure or oil pan going in and out of its own cooler just like the motorcycle ran.... As soon as I remove stock oil filter cover and install remote oil filter adaptor, ( even for just testing, I ran just a loop out of remote adaptor , short holes, and rite back into remote oil filter adaptor ) and oil pressure dropped to 20 psi and thats not running to any cooler or filter at all.. Does anyone know why oil pressure would drop 60 lbs just by adding adaptor ????
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Hope this breakdown helps. If I understand the instructions from the previous posts, part 13 is what needs to be removed and shimmed.
http://www.littleracecars.com/legends_xj1200_oil_cleaner.shtml
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Apparently; something to do with how the system works. I'm still learning, so don't have any definitive answers for you.
Size of lines...... Adding more line, or cooling area...... :-[ ::) ???
Sorry that I don't have an answer for you.
Steve
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steve I thought you would know lol ANYONE PLEASE HELP, John
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To the best of my understanding ???
Shimming the spring (to make it stiffer), is the thing that is needed.
Is that where it is located ??? :-[ ...... I don't know. I still have a lot to learn about these bike engines.
The other part of MY delema, is that I don't have an INEX/ 600 Racing legal engine.
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John (fasass47),
When I get back from work, I will try to find what info I can for you.
SORRY I have to run. Will be back in about 4 hours. I'll try to do what research I can.
Steve
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I don’t know what to tell you, it should not matter if the filter is on or the adaptor. Psi is psi the oil pump should not know if the filter is there or not. The size of the lines or the cooler will not cause the psi to drop that much. I would E-mail a builder like Hank Scott at Real race cars and ask him. Hank will reply to a E-mail with what he thinks. That would be the best way to find out what going on. Hank is one of the big names in motors and will know more the anyone here..
.http://www.hankscottracing.com/
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If the line isn't primed, could a bubble affect the PSI? Just thinking out loud.
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I spoke to 600 today and they said that the oil pressure gauge barely moves once the remote oil filter and coolers are installed. When I look through this thread would oil pressure not "actually" be the same and by shimming this valve would you not be "tricking" the system in to reading the actual pressure again.
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JG,
I doubt that it would..... but maybe if the bubble were to find it's way to a mechanical gauge??? Don't know. Don't think so though.
I DO think that Dave has the right idea......
Talk to an engine builder. I agree that it should not matter..... But apparently something is happening! ???
RB,
No. Shimming the the spring makes it stiffer. Not "tricking" the system. Just changes the dynamic of the spring that controls the pressure.
Steve
PS,
Sorry! Trying to catch up on emails and threads. I'll do some research, and see what I can give eveyone.
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So since the motor is in my car and I only get about 20 psi at idle when I first start the car I should do this. I look tonight and I think the steering shaft has to drop to get the oil pan out. Any other things you guys can think of to get the oil pan out?
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Jeremy,
Wish I had a good answer for you. :-[
I don't ; right at the moment! Shimming the spring on the oil pump has always been a favored upgrade. An "Old School" fix for oil pumps. Worked with the Street Stocks and the Mod.
I'll try to get an answer from my brother. He is a motorcycle mechanic. We just aren't quite seeing eye to eye right now.
Steve
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The steering shaft and you MAY need to take the lower control arm bolts out ( inside near pan) It may make this easy? I dont remember how close they are. But, I would call or E-mail a builder FIRST!! the psi should not do what you are stating and if the valve in your motor is not shimmed it should NOT have 20 psi on the high side of the system. Where are you taking the psi reading from?
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I am going off the gauge in the car.
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also I am running a virgin 1200 open motor. never been rebuilt
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Where is the gauge hooked to the motor?
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by those two lines going from the oil cooler to the bottom of the motor
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The lines on the side of the oil pan? Does gauge go into the case above the pan on the left side of car?
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left side of the car above the pan and above the back hose. Mine has the back hose hooked up running back to the oil cooler
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Is the hose that comes from the cooler go into the motor on the left side above the pan at the crank level? large fitting?
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I have 2 lines going from the cooler to that side of the motor. They are all the same size fittings.
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I will send you a PM
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Well fellows after talking with Mike @ little race cars and lamar @ LHS both great guys, said check your oil lines real good and sure enough they were rite one new line that I made must have pushed the rubber liner in and would let air go through but would not let the oil flow rite causing low oil pressure. Guess I need to be alittle more carefull, oh well thanks to all, John
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Old topic, new question...
Running a single cooler and remote adapter...
What should I do with the 2 ports on the exhaust side of the engine? Would think I could just plug them, but is there something in the oiling system that makes oil travel necessary between the 2 ports where I would just need to run a line from one port to the other?
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The port toward the front of the car on the pan is the out and you should run a line out from that port and the out at the back of the motor and tie them together, hank scott oil filter mount is the best way. Then run on line out the filter to the cooler then to the back of the motor "ready to use" filtered and cooled oil. The port to the rear on the pan is the return and has no psi and can be plugged. ( or used as a return from a over flow tank)
OK now the oil pan out is like 25psi stock and MUST be shimmed at the pump to bump the PSI to match the high psi side which is the out at the back of the motor, in the area of 65 psi. IF YOU TIE THE 2 LINES TOGETHER WITH OUT SHIMMING THE LOW PSI SIDE THEN THE PUMP WILL BYPASS THE HI PSI AND YOU WILL ONLY HAVE 25 PSI AT BOTH LINES......WHICH MEANS BOOOM
Most builders do this, but some dont so make sure.
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So, I still have the remote adapter, not the Texas style. Both lines come from the rear of the engine, so there is no way to join the 2.
I guess the question is...
Do I need that front port in the oil pan to be hooked to anything, or can i just plug it and the return line off?
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No the front pan fitting has PSI and needs to go some where then return. I run a dual cooler system. I go out the front pan to a cooler then return to the pan. Then the back of the motor out to fitter and cooler then returned to the back of the motor. I have a remote filter. I talked to my builder and her shims the high PSI side of the pump to bump the PSI, but he does not do the low side so, I can not tie them
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So, in theory, i should be able to just run a short line from one port to the other, correct?
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in theory
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I recently bought a new sealed engine from 600 and both ports on the pan were blocked off. I'm not sure why you would want to pump oil from the system back into the bottom of the pan? Seems like you would be using oil for no purpose that would be available for the rest of the system.
I put the new Hank Scott remote sustem on this engine....very nice. Hank made it very clear the lower bypass must be shimmed or plugged. He said 600 engines do not come shimmed or plugged. He guided me through it and it was a simple process. I was even able to remove the oil pan with the motor in the car. The only issue with this system is that it placees the filter near the headers but I am making a heat shield to resolve that. The heat shields will soon be available at http://www.legendsstuff.com/LegendsStuff.html (http://www.legendsstuff.com/LegendsStuff.html)
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Well the new motors come blocked off to get crap out of the oil system. But a new built motor does have the valve shimmed and ready to use with a filter system like his. I would NOT run a motor with the oil pan ports blocked off. There is PSI on the front one. Its only like 25 psi, but its still there.
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After a sleepless night, reading and studying, Im just going to run a 4" line to/from the ports. It'll be the same as having a cooler there in the oiling systems "mind", and I wont be worried about taking a chance with the plugged off ports.
Thanks for the input guys...
Next question,
How do I stop procrastinating? We havent raced since the first week of September and I dont have either car near ready to go for the opener in 5 days?
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) :P
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Ed,
As it is a remote filter, can you not run lines to place the filter farther away from the header?
Might still have to shield the lines if they are near the header though. Simple enough.
I'm in agreement with Dave as to why the engine comes with the plugs in it; Just to keep stuff out of the engine while shipping or in storage.
Steve
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Jim,
First, you have to hook up the oil lines in the proper manner.
:-[ Did I say that!? Oops!
Steve
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After a sleepless night, reading and studying, Im just going to run a 4" line to/from the ports. It'll be the same as having a cooler there in the oiling systems "mind", and I wont be worried about taking a chance with the plugged off ports.
Jim,
I got your messges this morning as well as your email. I have pasted my email response here as well. I gave you a version of the cooler I use. I do not buy from them website, but it was the first picture that came up when I Googled it.
If you have any other questions, call me I will be here today.
Randy - RPM
"Jim,
The oil pump is two stage pump and if you block off the front oil pan port, you force the pump to just bypass through the pressure relief making a ton of heat. I run mine out to a small cooler and back into the rear oil pan fitting.
If you choose to run it to the remote oil filter adapter you have to shim the pressure relief so it doesn’t bypass let main galley pressure drop. And that oil is unfiltered. So do not run it to the head oiler/cams as it will tear up the head.
I use a Tru-cool cooler. They are really effective and cheap in cost. Just make sure that use rubber mounts it as it will break the solder joints if mounted ridged. Also if you use it, make sure you support the 1” hex with a wrench when installing the fitting(s) as I have had a couple of customers tear them off by just “tightening” the fitting. http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/2554/TRU_Cool_Oil_Coolers
Randy"
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Thanks Randy, for all your help this off-season!
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I recently bought a new sealed engine from 600 and both ports on the pan were blocked off. I'm not sure why you would want to pump oil from the system back into the bottom of the pan? Seems like you would be using oil for no purpose that would be available for the rest of the system.
I put the new Hank Scott remote sustem on this engine....very nice. Hank made it very clear the lower bypass must be shimmed or plugged. He said 600 engines do not come shimmed or plugged. He guided me through it and it was a simple process. I was even able to remove the oil pan with the motor in the car. The only issue with this system is that it placees the filter near the headers but I am making a heat shield to resolve that. The heat shields will soon be available at http://www.legendsstuff.com/LegendsStuff.html (http://www.legendsstuff.com/LegendsStuff.html)
I run the same system and don't feel that a heat shield is needed, temps stay good with the cooling system I have 600 3pass for the main and setrab 910 for the head.
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Hi Steve,
The thing I like about the new remote filter mount is that it mounts to the engine and far less likely to be damaged in a crash. Also, if you might be lucky enough to have more than one engine, a remote filter adapter and lines could be mounted to each engine for easier swaps.
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Hi Ed,
I have used an Oberg filter (screen type) on all my race cars. It can be mounted anywhere via tapping the oil filter outlet and inlet, or using an adapter to do the same. Then I use braided lines to mount it out of the way. Granted, they are a bit pricey; But I really love them.
Steve