LegendsRacer - Legends & Bandolero Racing Forum
LEGENDS => General => Topic started by: JGRacing on November 16, 2007, 11:00:18 am
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Not sure if anyone else has seen this on racingjunk.com, but there is one person selling a traction control device for legends cars and another company that re-valves the sealed shocks. One thing that really ticks me off are companies that so openly will help you cheat. They are just leaches that suck the life out of a series. Things like this mess up racing for the people who can't spend thousands on hidden traction control devices or cheated up shocks. Davis Technologies that makes a lot of the traction control devices is here in my area and I've seen a few local dirt cars from some pretty successful drivers doing things on the track that are pretty suspicious.
Any thoughts on how to keep this stuff out of legends cars? Does anyone have any advice for officials or competitors on what to watch for? Has 600 Racing ever taken any legal action against any of these companies (it might be hard to do, but could at least cost the cheater companies a lot in legal fees)? This kind of stuff is one reason I am getting out of modifieds.
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John,
You did notice that the catagory is Dwarf/Legends. There is a lot of that stuff that is legal in Dwarf Car racing. Also, there are some of us who are using our cars in organizations other than INEX.
Just my .o2 worth
Steve
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Didn't mean to sould like I am going off on people using things like this in classes where they are legal. In these adds they are advertising them for legends cars and the shock add even says "with out any external indication of tampering". If someone is using re-valved shocks or using traction control in a class where it is legal, they shouldn't need to be making these things hidden. The hidden traction control stuff is really expensive and gives people a huge advantage when they can get away with it. I just want to see how we can keep this stuff out of classes like legends cars.
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There is always going to be a small percentage of people who will bend the rules. I think that we have to have faith in the tech inspectors and the grievence process. I think you will find most people are like you and me; racing on a budget, and having fun doing what we like to do.
Steve
PS,
I got out of mods, years ago, for the same reasons.
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Traction Control?! Revalved Shocks!?!?! Where can I find some of that? Man, we could do some winnin' then!!! Just funnin'. Yep, we see some here and there that seem suspicious. But I lecture my son that we're fast enough to win almost everywhere we've gone this year - if you could take out the "stupid factor". Shoot, let's just concentrate on going as fast as we can and beat 'em anyway. And besides, I'd be absolutely humiliated to have my name in the "Penalty Box" in the 600 mag.
Jon
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Publish people's names in the magazine? That's great. I like their thinking.
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Here is the traction control ad.......
$2,000.00
Have a Traction Control system for use on a legends car. This system was designed specifically for legends cars by Davis Technologies. Comes complete with user manual and instructions. Makes a big difference in improving handling and lap times! We no longer have a use for this device as we are getting out of racing completely. Price is $2000 Firm
This ad dosn't mention Dwarf cars....but who knows what they were thinking.
Brian
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This is the shocks ad.....................
STEWART DEVELOPMENT
The premier rebuilder for the legends series of racing, providing a complete service for all sealed Bilstein shocks. Valving possibilities are endless allowing you to now fine tune your suspension to each track for that "special" edge over the competition. Increase the drivabilitiy of your car while dramatically reducing your lap times. Utilizing the most advanced machine in the industry, Stewart Development is able to re-valve any Bilstein shock with out any external indication of tampering. We can go as mild or wild as you would like.
Please call (336) 472-8772 for more information.
Confidentiality is guaranteed.
The things that "pop" out at me is their use of "special edge" and "Confidentiality is guaranteed"
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That same shock ad is on eBay too...kind of stupid to spend your cash that way if you ask me...but Im just one of the old "dirt racin' farm boys", do whatcha want to your shocks, motor, tires, whatever... It's still a drivers game on clay!
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My problem is that I don't have a clue what would make one shock better than the other. I'm assuming that they control how quickly the shock collapses and how quickly the shock rebounds. I would guess that this would help with timing of weight transfer???
I guess the way to combat this is to have a shock swap rule, or a shock dyno, or both.
As far as traction control devices. I wish we could get some pictures on here of them to let people know what to look for. What are the tell tales?
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Tom,
That is exactly what they do to the shocks; Change the valving. Yes, it does help with weight transfer. The old Carerra shocks were 3 way adjustable, but people were even revalving those.
I'm not sure which traction control devices are being referred to. I would assume that they are to inhance weight transfer.
Steve
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From what I have heard, the traction control devices keep the rear wheels from spinning if you stand on the throttle coming off the turn.
I have heard that some of the ones in the legends cars are plugged in and removed by the driver. So they could remove it and put it in their pocket before they even came off the track. I have not seen one, and I wonder if a good driver couldn't beat it anyway. Throttle engagement is a feeling, and you can tell the drivers who get it just by watching them race. Seems to me that such a gismo is just doing that job for an inexperienced driver. That being said, I'm not worried about my driver getting beat by it. Sounds like a crutch for folks who aren't smart enough to learn how to setup/adjust a car.
As far as shocks go, INEX could do a shock swap and really screw up a cheater's setup.
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Inex has considered this problem. Here is a link to their tech info update...
http://600racing.com/inex_info/tech_updates/521410.html
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Thanks for the link.
What about worn out shocks? How can you tell if your shocks are still good, and can INEX tell the difference between wear and tear and tampering?
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Now there's a darn good question I'd like to see answered. I know that some guys have dyno'd their shocks to check for wear, but I don't know if there's a dyno graph that would prove cheating over wear...
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I've met Mr. Stewart and he talks a good game. He assured me that due to variances in shocks coming from Bilstein INEX could not police (catch) his modifications. So I recently to eight shocks to a friend with a dyno. No intention of internally modifying them, but we were hoping to be able to taylor the bump / rebound to each corner. Unfortunately for us (individual team looking for an advantage) but right in line with INEX's desire to limit shock spending, the variance across eight tests was very minimal. Therefore, whenever Mr. INEX inspector wishes and has the capacity to dyno a suspect shock, it should be immediately apparent which one has been "under the knife."
We didn't race much at AMS this year, but I've been told that they did seize and test shocks a couple of times. I have to admit that for once I was pleased that an INEX mandated piece of equipment did live up to it's claim of reducing spending.
But I'm still ticked about the changes coming this year!
JB
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Well that's good news. To be honest, just starting out as I am, I'm glad to have so few choices available to me. It means there is no need to go and spend a whack of money on upgrades and cheats to stay competitive.
The changes proposed for this coming season result in the replacement of one spindle for me. The safety related rule changes were already in place at our local track, and I'm glad they were. I want to race for fun. I have no problem making it more fun by winning, but I want to be able to walk away from any accident I may get into. It's not that big of an expenditure to me to keep a little safer.
Mike
I kinda figured that the shock guys are blowing a bit of wind. If you can change it enough to make a difference in your handling, how could it not be detectable?
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If you can change it enough to make a difference in your handling, how could it not be detectable?
It's probably one of those loophole assurances. One where its undetectable by looking at it, but if it gets dyno'ed you're on your own.
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His shocks work great, dropped 3/10s off a track I had problems with, the car stayed planted off the corners and no tire spin off the corner made a huge difference, I say if you aren't cheating you aren't trying INEX will never be able to police this, they are using scare tactics only. Next ...traction control.
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His shocks work great, dropped 3/10s off a track I had problems with, the car stayed planted off the corners and no tire spin off the corner made a huge difference, I say if you aren't cheating you aren't trying INEX will never be able to police this, they are using scare tactics only. Next ...traction control.
Once again, we don't need people like you in this class of racing. Have you heard of the SCCA? Its a little group of racers that used to be 10X bigger until all the cheaters wrecked it with their $15,000 "spec" Miata motors and so on. I would love to see you try your skills on the dirt someday up here. This is one of the last real racers classes out there, I sure hope you're in the minority like I think you are. Enjoy your Cheater shocks and Traction control, Im sure you'll feel great still getting your ass handed to you by a decent driver
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VMS I was joking ...it's called being sarcastic get a grip. And leave my ass out of it .
Mike.
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I can't get a grip, I race on dirt with stock shocks...It's obvious by your previous posts that you are not as squeaky clean as you are trying to make yourself out to be since someone has now busted you. There was no sarcasm in this post. Period. I have been PM'd by numerous others, pointing out other posts you have made, including in the fj vs xj post where you tell him to just buy a new motor and have his builder build it and cheat because thats what everyone else does (I'll admit I even thought that was sarcasm, until I saw your post in the 1250 head for sale thread asking if he still had an intact seal).
There is no room in this class for cheaters, at least not in my book.
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I have to say that I don't like to see cheating of any kind. If we all keep to the rules, we know that we are racing by our skills and the condition we've kept our cars in. If I need to cheat to get 3/10 faster, then I wasn't good enough to get there on my own.
If we all resist cheating, then we can all easily afford to race. Once you start cheating, and accepting cheating as the norm, the cost of racing can only go up dramatically. If you're not good enough to win on your own, you're not good enough at all!
Mike
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VM is obvious that you don't know much about Legends, read he post after mine...this is what I was getting after, my point was how can you sell a 1250 head when the engine is supposed to be sealed and only be opened up by an approved builder, as for my post on 1200 vs 1250 it was pure sarcasm, there are so many big 1250's out there and that was my point you are right cheating sucks but it is out there, and no I have never cheated in a Legend event, I never even won one, I guess I need to temper my coments so guys like you wont get the panties tied in a knot, Have a great Holiday, ....really.
Mike.
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If you quack like a duck, and act like a duck, people will think you are a duck, panties or not. We agree on two things, cheating sucks, and have a great Holiday. As far as my knowledge of the cars, Im not sure how its obvious that I have none because I dont brag about pretending to cheat...? ???
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No it was your comment about my comment on the sale of the 1250 head they are sealed and not supposed to be removed by the owner just an approved builder (unless your cheating) LOL , I figured that was pretty common knowledge...guess not.. I was howvwer shocked the guy was openly selling it cause you can only get new seals from an INEX inspector or an approved engine builder. Anyway your point is taken.
Have a good one.
Mike.
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I guess when my 8 race old SEALED top of the line motor broke the crank and damaged the cases I should do nothing with it. It was cheaper with shipping to by a NEW one, so trying to recover some cash is wrong@#%@%. Or just make a planter out of the thing!!. I own the motor not 600! , you can use the parts just send them to a builder for install and seal.
If 600 wants us to give them the broken parts and all the other parts of a motor that is good maybe they should lease us the motors, OH they want make as much $$$
I installed a new OPEN motor no need for the parts off a LEGAL sealed motor..
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Dave...calm down...I have no problem with you selling your parts, although that would be a really cool planter ;D
Mike...Sorry if I took everything you've ever said literally ;D
Guess we're all a little punchy in the offseason!
Lets all have a super Christmas and twiddle our thumbs for the next 5 freaking months until the snow covered tracks thaw!
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Just that calling someone a cheater, even in joking, can stick to thier name. Please dont imply that about me, or anyone, without cause..
Thanks,
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Dave,
I never said anything about you...check the posts, I have no problem with you selling your parts.
As for calling someone a cheater, when someone says they cheat in their posts, Im not calling them anything, He said he was a cheater, not me!