LegendsRacer - Legends & Bandolero Racing Forum
LEGENDS => Setup and Handling => Topic started by: MegaMang on January 06, 2008, 08:59:23 pm
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I've seen a few posts about protecting the tires with different coatings. Are there any coatings that will pass Inex rules? Something I can do to help extend the life of the tires that is implicitly accepted by Inex?
Thanks,
Mike
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Nope. You are not allowed to do anything to the tires other than shave them. The only thing you can put on them is water. :)
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Right your not even allowed to wash them, I have tried tire softners they dont work and it's a complete waste of money, there is nothing better than a new cut tire...
Mike.
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Yeah, I thought that might be the case, but I thought I'd ask around since I remember reading threads suggesting different treatments. I'm inclined to agree that new tires are the best. Besides, that way you can make sure the rubber is at maximum pliability.
Thanks guys.
Mike
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I have seen guys on dirt soak their tire and get good results however I have not really heard of or seen results on asphalt, again I am not the end all for answers, I have tried track tac and odorless mineral spirits it was good for about 6 laps, new tires are the best way to go, if you get a medium cut thay can last 15 races.
Mike.
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That's pretty much what I'd determined I'd do. Just thought I'd ask after reading some earlier posts about tire treatments. Mind you, 15 races out of medium cut tires on our track is really optimistic. More like 10 races. Our track hasn't been paved in something like 30+ years, so it's a real grind.
Mike
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I think the best thing you can do in the off season is to protect the tires the best you can.
Relieve tire pressure; wrap, bag, or cover them. Don't expose them to extreme temps (such as storing outside). Black trash bags work well for keeping out sunlight exposure.
Just a few random thoughts.
Steve
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The black 55 gallon trash bags and a dark corner of the basement worked great for the modified tires.
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I just wear 'em down in the fall so that I have to get new ones in the spring. That way the rubber is freshest when I'm rusty.
Mike
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We have a few racers that soak their tires. It seems to work for them. I am not sure of the product that they use. I find that after 6 to 8 races the lap times will drop from a new set of tires. Times can be brought back by replacing right sides only. Our track is 20 years old and has not been repaved.
Geoff
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Unfortunately for the sport, tire prepping does greatly improve lap times. When the right stuff is applied in the right way, it can last an entire race day.
Fortunately in our area (Georgia), nobody really does it and gets away with it.
Legends tires do drop off in times over a period of a few races IF the setup remains the same. There are setup changes you can make to help the car run just as well on old tires. That is to a certain point. After about 8 races at the most (4 if the tire is cut real low) it's time for a new set.
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Where do you guys buy your tires? Are they only available from Legend dealers/600 racing?
Wbhere do you buy rims? Same?
Thanks.
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http://www.pistonetigertom.com/
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70. TIRES: The tire must be a “Legends Edition†205/60R13
BFGoodrich T/A Comp HR4. Tires may not be soaked,
softened, siped (razor cuts), grooved or recapped. The raised
white letters of the BFGoodrich Tires logo must face towards
the outside of the car and be visible at all times.
You might also check with your local tire dealer and see if they can get these tires for you at a reasonable cost.
While your checking that out, might be a good opportunity to ask about sponsorship. ;)
Steve
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I checked with a local BF Goodrich dealer here and he said that any spec tire like we run that is stamped comes from the BF Goodrich race division and he cannot get them. He said if he is caught selling those tires he could loose his deal with them. He said it started a few years ago when the corvette clubs had a sepcial tire from BF goodrich and the dealers would sell it to anyone as a street tire so BF pulled all specialty tires back from the local dealers.
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I buy mine from Ol' Dawg, Mike Smith. http://www.oledawgracing.com/ . Mike is an awesome guy to deal with.
Geoff
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How much do cut tires run? Do they need your wheels to cut them?
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500 to 600, and no they do not need your wheels. You can call and just order the tires. OleDawg2 / Little Race Cars, Clay Hair, Synder, Nick Pistone, etc..
Try your local dealer. Here I get new cut tires from my dealer
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It is recommended that you give them your rims when you are getting tires cut. One set of wheels will always be a little different from another set.
I personally believe INEX should outlaw tire cutting.
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It is recommended that you give them your rims when you are getting tires cut. One set of wheels will always be a little different from another set.
I personally believe INEX should outlaw tire cutting.
Just out of curiosity..why?
I thought tire cutting was a good thing, makes the car faster and doesn't it make the tires last longer, and stops the possibility of gauging the tires???
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It adds to the cost of racing. A lot of guys around here cut the tires down to where you can only use them for two races. 500 bucks or so every two races adds up in a hurry. Removing rubber does not prolong tire life. It does make the car faster, but that's not always the best thing in a "spec" series.
Ask any karter what it had done to that sport.
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It adds to the cost of racing. A lot of guys around here cut the tires down to where you can only use them for two races. 500 bucks or so every two races adds up in a hurry. Removing rubber does not prolong tire life. It does make the car faster, but that's not always the best thing in a "spec" series.
Ask any karter what it had done to that sport.
Well if people are putting 4 tires on their car every 2-3 races, that's retarded.
My comment on shaving tires and making them last longer is simply because new tires seem to chunk off if overheated and shaving can help that....but if people are doing what you're saying, that's retarded...
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Yet another reason that "Dirt's for Racin', Asphalt's for Gettin there!" We don't need none o them there cut tires...just take a grinder to 'em once a week to get the shine off! Tires last a season....another reason I race Legends
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The problem I see is that if cutting the tires down where they only last 2 races gives you a small advantage, some people will do it regardless of cost. Out of control tire expenses have killed off more than a few classes of racing and even racetracks over the years. With dirt modifieds around my area, some people run the soft compound Hoosier tires that might only last 15 laps on a right rear. The point of street tires on a legends car is to save the racers money. From what I understand, they decided to allow camber cutting because as the tires wear, the outside will wear faster than the inside giving the tire camber, which was hard to regulate. Maybe require the tread surface measurements to stay within a certain percentage across the entire surface?
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If the tires were never cut, they could be moved from the right side to the left side and vise versa, without flipping them on the rim. Also another thing to remember is that the shops that cut tires, do not always cut the same profile for everyone. Each shop has their "special" cut that goes only on their own cars, or on the cars of the people who are good for bringing in business.
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I gotta disagree with you on that Tom.
Because of the way that radial tire cords are wound, the tires do take a "Set".
Not like kart tires, or bias ply racing tires.
There Are advantages to cutting the tires. As already stated, they do not chunk off (for lack of a better term).
They also change the slip angles that the tires work at; there by changing the temp, and grip, that the tires will work best at. (Even on dirt)
Does it add extra costs.................
Sure it does!
The question is.....
How hard are you willing to playing the game?
Is a spot or two worth the added cost? Maybe if it means a win. ???
I'm just doing it for shear enjoyment these days. I miss being in a race car. I am also enjoying building "My Car" "My Way". Is it the right way????
Only time will tell.
The tire debate is about like the oil debate.
This will go on forever!
Do what you need to do to accomplish your goal. It's not always true that "the guy with the most money wins".
There is room for good ol' fashion engieneering. Lots of younger guys than me, with a whole lot more talent. Still think that the smarter driver and and crew will get the job done!
My .02 for what anyone thinks it's worth.
Steve
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We had a guy here last year that thought he would save some money by not cutting his tires and he soon got the nickname "spinner" cutting the extra tread off stops all that extra rubber from folding over under pressure. And I can tell you, we run on an old track here and it is hard on tires and cutting them certainly makes them last longer.
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Yeah, I can attest to that. The track here will ruin a nice new set of tires very quickly if you don't cut them. With a light cut, the tread blocks don't squirm as much, and don't loose large outside edge chunks. Without, the tires are a mess after one race. I know our track is at least 35 years old, and it's known as a grinder. It's a low bank track with a fairly tight corner and longish straights. That tight corner really tortures the tread if it squirms and folds too much.
With a mini stock, you can loose the outside of the tread in a night. Change out the front right after every night for a few weeks, and suddenly you start thinking about tire cutting a little more carefully. Luckily the Legend is light enough that it doesn't chew the tire that fast, but it's still noticeable.
Mike
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Would it be cheaper if only a flat cut to a set depth (no stagger) was legal? Then implement a rule where the tread has to be within a certain percentage across the surface. This would cover the pavement racers, cut down on special custom cutting, and allow the dirt racers to still have full depth tires. With a flat cut, I would think that any local tire shop that has a tire cutting machine could do them saving on shipping. The shops already cutting them could crank out alot more tires if they were all the same. Just a thought.
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It is interesting that the tires can't stand up to some of the tracks without being cut. It still does not sound like cutting is the best solution to the racer. It sounds like BF Goodrich needs to make a better tire. Most of the time, when a series has trouble with a tire, they change compounds or manufacturers. The TRoadsters run a treaded Hoosier tire, i know nothing of them, do they need to be cut?
The Pro Challenge cars run the same size rims as legends, and they run Hoosier Slicks. However, I would not want to see legends go to such a tire, as it would give so much grip, it would take away the whole point of legends: Overpowered and under tired.
My last suggestion would be to go to the Goodyear eagles that the Allison legacy cars run. They run the same wheel size, and do not cut their tires.
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I don’t really understand the complaint about the cost of these tires. I race on pavement and last year my cut tires were 2 seasons old, not the fastest but still would hold air. I am going to get new tires today and expect to get a season out of them, if not in a crash and mess them up. Then they will become spares for the following year. That is one of the cheapest tire bill in racing. Heck even a go carts with soft slicks could spend thousands $$$$ if raced a lot. Street stock could spend 2 grand a year and I talk to a buddy that runs a sportsman pavement car and 125 bucks each for tires and 2 to 3 weeks they are done. So, what are we talking about here????
$550.00 for new cut tires that could last a whole season, again I don’t see that problem..
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Please read the entire thread to understand where I am coming from. Thanks.
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The whole tire cutting thing, and RB stated it best, has to do with the the rubber folding over while in the turns.
Cutting the tires changes the slip angles that the tires work best at.
When I was running Mods' (pavement), we used the Hoosiers or Goodyears. It was ALL about the grip! Same deal with over powered and under tired. Ya gotta remember that these cars have a lot of horsepower, and weigh very little. Same with Legends Cars.
Different track surfaces, give different abuse to the tires (black top, cement, dirt). Cutting, or shaving the tires (in any form), will lower the effective use of the tire. Will it give better grip? Yes! But it will limit the amount of tire life (to some extent).
As I am going to run autocross; I will likely go with the slick type tire. It's a grip thing!
OldDawg has some very good info on tire cutting, as does The Tire Rack. (both good sites)
I think Megamang (Mike) has them listed in the reference material.
Tire rules will likely need to be brought up to INEX and 600 Racing. I don't want to get caught up in the politics of the rules. Not my thing! Would there be a better tire choice? .............. I can't say as of yet. Rules being what they are..... Ya have to make due with what the rules allow. It's the same whatever class, or type, of racing you do. At this point, cutting the tires seems to work for most.
Steve
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From my perspective, I do not have a problem with cutting the tires as long as it does not get to the point where I will only be able to get a couple races out of them, and will have to show up with 2 or 3 sets cuts at various angles for adjustments just to be competetive. I'm just throwing out an idea of how they might police the situation before we all figure out more ways to waste stupid amounts of money on a class that is meant to be affordable. :)
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Tom brought up an interesting point regarding tire composition. I understand that last year the BFGoodrich tires were tackier than the year before, so it's entirely possible that the tires may have held up better without cutting than the previous year's composition. It's entirely likely that we all continued to cut tires because we were in the habit. I would like to see the manufacturer make subtle changes to composition to eliminate the need for cutting tires. I'd love to be able to use one to two sets a year and not have to cut tires to keep them from getting destroyed. This would indeed bring this class back to where it was intended to be. Affordable racing was one of the main reasons behind the legend, and not having to cut tires would help to bring it back there. I do know that some of the guys at our track were swapping tires every 3 or 4 weeks, and that is way too expensive for affordable racing. Those lads are trying to be as competitive as possible, and to be honest, I'm inclined to think that at that point you need to move on to another class of car. If you like spending lots of money on your race car, move on to a class that encourages it.
The cost of tire cutting for us is $25 a tire, so $500 for tires is not a huge cost, but if you start getting obsessive, it can cost a bundle. Change the composition to keep tires lasting longer and not needing cutting, and you discourage this kind of trend.
Good point Tom.
Mike
PS I'll still be getting my first set cut this year. Maybe next set...
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I would bet that the legends tire come off of the same line with the same compound as the street tire and then get the INEX stamp. I had thought about a shallower tread to prevent the chunking on asphalt (if they put me in charge of 600 for the day :) . At $100 for a tire, there probably is not much customization by BFG. Any difference in compound from one year to the next is probably just them tweaking the formula for the street tires.
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Im glad we dont have these issues in the dirt. :)
I had heard that the first run of the tires last year were softer than they were supposed to be, but there were only like 500 of them or something, then they were back to normal...?