LegendsRacer - Legends & Bandolero Racing Forum
LEGENDS => Setup and Handling => Topic started by: Aklegend53 on July 11, 2016, 03:34:19 am
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Ok here goes. I'm a rookie on asphalt this year and my lap times are slower by .250 seconds than the others. I have new cut tires and I feel I'm pushing my car pretty hard but my lap times don't reflect that. When I finish the race my right side tires are smoking hot and the tread towards the outside of the car is being worn quicker than the inside. Here is my setup with me in the car. All my alignments are to the "a good starting point for asphalt as well as my springs. I'm running 52% rear 52% left and cross of 51%. I'm loose coming out of the corners and tight midway through the corner till I can get back on the gas. I'm driving a sedan. I believe my gear ratio is correct cause I'm hitting almost 10k at the end of the straight. And I'm running on a 3/8 oval with 6 degree banking. Any help even small would help. Feel like I'm making some rookie mistakes on my setup. My tire pressures or 22 right side and 16 left side. HELP I just want to run with the pack
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Perhaps several factors here... You state you are a rookie and your lap times are .250 slower. Seat time, getting a feel for how the car works and handles, should be your main concern. You will get faster in time.
A good starting point is just that; A starting point. You will need to make adjustments to the car to fit your track and your driving style. The right side tires will get hotter than the left side. Smoking hot tires indicate an issue with set up and/ or driving style. Have you talked to some of the other racers at your track? Share your set up with them and get feedback from them as to how your set up can be improved. Most racers will be flattered that you asked them for help. Most racers are pretty friendly and willing to help out the new folks. It makes safer racing for everyone.
I know that's not a ton of help to you right now. Learn to drive smoothly (seat time); Ask questions (you will be surprised what people will share with you); and work on tuning your set up.
Steve
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Also you should always fix the problem you encounter first, as you stated pushing bad in the center of the turn. you are either carrying to much speed or have to much cross... if you get that fixed it will fix the loose on exit. Also if you are a rookie and only .25 off your doing pretty good... just get some laps for awhile then start working on the setup.
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51% cross may be too high and your tight center may be causing the loose off by having to put in too much steering input.
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Ok guys thanks for the help. We did have a tire pressure gauge malfunction so it was reading off a couple of pounds so that didn't help. I love legend car I just want to keep up. I'm not the guy that thinks he should win every time I just want to be in the hunt. I will definitely try bringing my cross weight down. I was thinking 48. I can hear my right front squealing through the middle of the corner. Also I was thinking putting a 300# spring in the right front any thoughts on that? Thanks again for all the help.
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Make one change at a time and keep lots of notes on what each change made.
Perhaps make the cross weight change and see how that works for you in practice or hot laps. If you have another shock and the 300# spring; Preset it so you can quickly change it at the track and give it a try. Again; Keep notes on every change you make.
Random thoughts.
Steve
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I don't have the money to have spare shocks, so if I need to test a new spring, I have some extra shock collars that I preset at home. The cross change should put you in the typical range that I run in.
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Part 1
I'm in my second year. I am just starting to run with the pack week to week. We run a 3/8 miles as well. .25 isn't too bad as others have said.
There is a lot to consider. You should be in this ballpark on springs.
RF 275
LF 250
LR185
RR 200
Your left and rear is good but as other said 51% is too high. A good start point is 48%.
Your tire pressures are lower than I run and have been recommended. I cant say I have ever has my tires smoking coming off the track, but I would check my caster / camber settings. You a pyrometer with a probe and adjust until you can get tires evenly heated across the tire, to the best of you ability. This shows the whole tire is working for you. I will venture to say your so tight your killing the tires.
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You will notice anyone winning races is wrecking loose coming off the corner so loose is good, but tight through the center and loose off at 51% cross sound more like a condition I dealt with, hopefully I can shorten your learning curve.
I was good on entry, had trouble rotating the center and getting back to the gas. Same as you. The all the sudden she would violently snap loose. So its was Tight, Tight, Tight, Whoa loose! First we thought we had to loosen it up, we went all the way to 46% cross and a 225 RR spring. Yes the car drove better, but I was still wanting it to be looser. That when my crew chief said he thinks its the entry which is the problem. We lowered the spring rate in the front which loosened the car up and we ran the fastest lap time we ever had at that track.
Of course we had go back to our original rear springs and our baseline of 48% cross.
I recommend Kevin Yeatts set up book. Its a $100, but it comes with tech support for the whole year. I bought it, didn't use it for the first half of the season (cause we were old Late model and Figure 8 guys, and we could do this on our own). We didn't make any real progress until we went to his baseline setup. I would say its worth $100 just to have his cell phone # where he will answer your questions.
Also check your rear tow and rear end square. These axle tubes bend real easy, just touch wheels with someone. If your rear end is not square you wont be able to drive it.
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Legend cars are a great form of racing! So many people are willing to help with great suggestions, here is the problem. Making changes requires a full understanding of your entire set up. There are set up currently that require over 52% cross and other that are in the lower 40's. Find someone that will help you through the entire set up. Feel free to call me and I will offer you free help.
330-310-9212
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Part 1
I'm in my second year. I am just starting to run with the pack week to week. We run a 3/8 miles as well. .25 isn't too bad as others have said.
There is a lot to consider. You should be in this ballpark on springs.
RF 275
LF 250
LR185
RR 200
Your left and rear is good but as other said 51% is too high. A good start point is 48%.
Your tire pressures are lower than I run and have been recommended. I cant say I have ever has my tires smoking coming off the track, but I would check my caster / camber settings. You a pyrometer with a probe and adjust until you can get tires evenly heated across the tire, to the best of you ability. This shows the whole tire is working for you. I will venture to say your so tight your killing the tires.
Ok I'm running
Rf 280
Lf 240
Lr 185
Rr 200
Which is pretty close. Just curious what you are running for tire pressure? Also do you run even pressure on each side? Like 29 on both right side and ?? On both left sides? I'm curious why I'm seeing more tread loss on the outside of the RR tire. Should I swap them with the LR (I have great tread on that tire) so I have good contact?
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Legend cars are a great form of racing! So many people are willing to help with great suggestions, here is the problem. Making changes requires a full understanding of your entire set up. There are set up currently that require over 52% cross and other that are in the lower 40's. Find someone that will help you through the entire set up. Feel free to call me and I will offer you free help.
330-310-9212
I will definitely give you a call. I have a weird schedule and won't be racing for 3 weeks. I will give you a call before I setup the car. Thanks again.
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Are you running cut tires? If so, the LH and RH tires will likely be cut different, so swapping them is not a good idea.
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All four tires are cut different, they are not supposed to be interchangeable. I have in a pinch used a RF on the RR, but I'm not winning races either and I don't think that is recommended.
I think tires pressures are driver preference and setup dependent. A lot of people run the same in the RF and RR, I run different pressures in all four tires with the most in the RF and the least in the LR.
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Legend cars are a great form of racing! So many people are willing to help with great suggestions, here is the problem. Making changes requires a full understanding of your entire set up. There are set up currently that require over 52% cross and other that are in the lower 40's. Find someone that will help you through the entire set up. Feel free to call me and I will offer you free help.
330-310-9212
Dennis,
I am going to work on the setup tomorrow. I will try to give you a call tomorrow afternoon. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Steve
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8/6 UPDATE so we checked the square of the rear end using the method from Steve and VMS measuring to the rear crossmember and me were off by 1/4 of a inch. We also lowered the height about a 1/4 inch. The car drove amazing and shaved .150 off my time. I was running with the pack and it felt great. So here is the situation now. I can drive WAY further than all the other including the leaders, however when I get back on the gas on the exit of the corner I get crazy loose and slide up the racetrack. My cross was 49 and my rear weight was 52. I was running 28#s right side and 16#s left. I love gaining speed and getting better. Thanks for the help.
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Sounds like you are making headway.
Too much tire stagger on right rear? Perhaps lower the tire pressure in right rear a bit and see if that helps. Softer right rear spring?
Steve
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Loosen the car. Sounds like a "tight -loose""condition. When on exit the car is to tight and you have to much steering input, start accelerating and then the rear kicks out. Bring that cross down. ;)
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I'm a rookie too, so take this with a grain of salt, but you said you can drive it in way deeper. Are you driving it in too deep, which in turn causes the "tight-loose" mentioned above?
I saw a lot of improvement personally by just backing up the corner a touch. I'm not roasting the tires as much, either.
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Maybe I should clarify. So when I'm braking into the corner the car feels great. I can drive the car further into the corner and the car feels very planted. To me it is a very good thing. I definitely don't feel the car is pushing. So mid corner I begin to slowly roll onto the gas I can feel the weight of the car shift to the rear. When I start to accelerate out of the corner the car can't put traction down. So I can either back off the gas and try to stay in my lane or try to feather the throttle with the car sliding up the racetrack. There where several times where I would pass someone going low into the corner and have to give it back because I was afraid I was going to slide up and make contact with them. Don't get me wrong the car was WAY better. I definitely don't feel that the car needs loosened up at all. I like driving further in the corner just need to put the power down on exit. I think the stagger advice is true and will try that. Was thinking about lowering the rear a 1/4 inch to help get traction off. I feel that the setup is very close and thanks for all the advice.
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Loosen the car. Too much pinion maybe??
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So I race in Alaska and I just completed the last race of the year.(yeah I know we have a short season). So I dropped the rear down on both sides to 3 3/4" I picked up .200 and I lowered the rr tire pressure a pound and it seemed to help the control. Going to get the carbs rebuilt for next season and try to find someone who will professionally cut the tires and ship to Alaska. Then change out my clutch and the wheel bearings as well. I think I might try some new rims as well as I'm not sure the besets are the lightest. Thanks for all the help. I may try to find a legend racing school as well. Had a blast. Till next season.
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Thanks for the update!
Upside of things is that you are still moving forward (+ .200). Every little bit helps!
I am sure a carb rebuild will likely help. Don't know when it was done last. Whom ever you choose to do your carbs; Make sure they know your track configuration, altitude and average temp during your racing season. All that can make a difference. Cut tires are the current fast way to get around on pavement. Get the light weight Bassett wheels if you can afford to.
Check the steel plates on your clutch. Make sure they are within tolerance. Replace the fiber discs. Check the springs. Are they within tolerance? That should help give you some bite in the get up and go.
Keep those bearings spinning freely. A few old threads on bearings and what grease to use. Like everything, lots of different opinions.
Seat time is ALWAYS a plus. Whether it be racing at your local track(s) or racing schools. Always a lot to be learned. ;)
Sorry your season is short. I understand, as I have a daughter up on the peninsula. Our season here in Montana isn't to bad, but not as long as farther south.
Good to hear that you enjoyed your season and will be back next year. Now you get to get real personal with your car and start the teardown and rebuild. Check the chassis, engine, every nut and bolt, radius rods, pan hard bar, wiring, etc., etc., etc... And of course my favorite; New paint! Don't forget me.... I love to see those pics of the new paint schemes !!! ;D
Have a good off season and an even better 2017!
Steve
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Thanks for the update!
Upside of things is that you are still moving forward (+ .200). Every little bit helps!
I am sure a carb rebuild will likely help. Don't know when it was done last. Whom ever you choose to do your carbs; Make sure they know your track configuration, altitude and average temp during your racing season. All that can make a difference. Cut tires are the current fast way to get around on pavement. Get the light weight Bassett wheels if you can afford to.
Check the steel plates on your clutch. Make sure they are within tolerance. Replace the fiber discs. Check the springs. Are they within tolerance? That should help give you some bite in the get up and go.
Steve
Steve do you have any recommendations on carb rebuild shops? I obviously am going to have to ship them out to be rebuilt.
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Jim at VMS, Randy at RPM (likely the closest to you), Hank Scott, ... There are a number of people out there that can do a nice rebuild for you. Several are members here on the site. I like to do business with folks here on the site if at all possible. Hopefully, some of our friends will chime in and give you their info.
Steve