LegendsRacer - Legends & Bandolero Racing Forum
LEGENDS => Engine Care & Tuning => Topic started by: Bigmil on June 24, 2010, 10:37:47 pm
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So I raced last Saturday and the only thing that happened was that it took an extra long time to get the car started (had to keep cranking) for the first practice. After that it started fine all night long and ran great (accept for my novice driving).
Then
I go out today to get the car ready for this weekends race and it won't start. It turns over but won't fire. It barely stumbles everylittle bit...but just barely....almost to where I wouldn't mention it....but I did.
I took out each spark plug and verified that the was sparking (didn't look strong but I don't exactly know what strong looked like). I did note that there was no fuel on the spark plugs like I thought there would be if the engine was flooded. So I also took the fuel line off the carb and turn the ignition on and verified that fuel shoots out. I put the fule line back and it still won't fire??
I have tried messing with the choke (but it's like 90 degrees today and didn't think it would need it anyway) which is where the slight stumbling came in, But still nothing.
I am completely lost. Could I be not getting enough spark? How would you check and what would cause that? And if that was true wouldn't the plugs have unburnt fuel on them? Is there something in the carb assembly that can get plugged up?
Aghhhh.......Please help I want to go racing this weekend!!
Gerad
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Check the ground wire to the starter
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Hi Gerad,
a) Fouled plugs
b) Contaminated fuel
c) Improperly adjusted carbs
d) Weak ignition coils
e) Weak pulse generator(s)
f) Weak spark unit(s)
g) Poor compression
h) vacuum leak
As Jim suggested, Check for tight wiring connections, check plug wires (good connection? cracked? etc...)
Have you tried a shot of starting fluid? Will usually get anything to fire up, if only briefly.
Throwing out some general stuff to check.
Steve
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I checked the ground wire to the strater and it was secure. I even tried wiggling it while trying to start it. Still notta.
a) The plugs don't appear to be fouled but I will change them tommorow.......What plugs should be in there (I have a 1200 open)?
b) The fuel is new but I guess it still could be bad (just topped off the tank tonight but already had atleast half a tank of what I raced with in it)?
c) The carbs were fine last Saturday and I don't touchem
d) Is there a way to test the ignition coils?
e) Can you test the pulse generator (I don't even know what this is?)
f) Again I don't know what the spark unit is or how to test it?
g) I check and have decent compression
h) From what I can tell there is only one vaccum line and that us from the carb to the electronic control module thingy on the firewall. I check that line and didn't find anything obvious.
I think I am going to get new spark plugs tommorow (assuming I know which ones to get) and go from there. I will also get some starting fluid and try that out. That should tell me if it is a fuel or spark issue for sure.
Thank you, keep it coming.
Gerad
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Gerad,
Here is a thread to spark plugs.
http://www.legendsracer.com/index.php?topic=101.0
What did your plugs look like? Black, White, Tan?
When you checked for spark, did you get a fat blue spark or was it weak looking?
Have you sprayed some carb cleaner to clean air passages in carbs? Sometimes, just sitting for a week will gum them up.
Doubtful that it is too serious. Check all electrical connections. Sometimes it's just silly stuff that comes loose.
To test coils:
1) Disconnect the primary leads from the coil. Use an ohm meter set at Rx10 and measure between the 2 primary wires. Resistance should be around 2.8 ohms.
2) Remove the secondary leads (spark plug wires) from the coils
3) Use an ohm meter set at Rx1000 and measure between the secondary lead receptical in the coil and the mounting bolts. The resistance should be about 21,000 - 28,000 ohms.
4) If the coils fail to pass any of these tests the coil should be replaced.
5)Use an ohm meter and check for continuity through the spark plug wires and cap. There should be continuity (high resistance). If there is no continuity, the spark plug lead or cap is faulty.
This info is out of one of my motorcycle manuals. Can send more info if needed.
Steve
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I still think its a loose ground wire. Have had that issue more than once.
Sounds stupid, but charge/test the battery, if the battery is weak, the starter sucks most of the juice to turn it over, and there wont be enough to fire it
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Do you have a red box or black? IF red try to get one off a buddies car and plug it in and see if that changes it. I had a box go bad and it would be hard to start then run on on 2,..then clear and run on 4???put a new box and fixed it.
Mine went bad BETWEEN races over the week??? If you have a black box I dont know
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On the ground wire thing, when checking the battery, make sure you have a good ground back there too.
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You guys are fantastic!!
As soon as I get home from work I will be checking those coils out.
I have a black box...haven't been able to afford an upgrade yet......and if it is that I don't think I will be racing this weekend as I don't have a supplier near by that I can pick one up from. This makes me nervous.....:(
I had the car on a charger all last night while trying to start it, so I think that is fine (and I left it on a trickle charger over night so this afternoon when I check it next it should be the best it can be). Plus the starter turns over real good. I think I will take off the starter ground and clean up the surfaces and reinstall it. Maybe that's the issue. I will check the battery grounds as well. Are there any other significant grounds that I should check?
On the spark plugs, do you guys buy them online or is there a local store that carry's what ya'll use. I checked Napa and Autozome and they don't carry any of what I am looking for.
Thanks guys I have a lot of work to do tonight!
Gerad
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I buy my spark plugs at Fleet & Farm, they're cheaper there than I can buy them from NGK! I don't use the fancy stuff though, just the regular old plugs-so they are always in stock.
4 plugs arent going to go bad just sitting for 6 days.
Just the 2 grounds unless others were added after 600 built the car.
I'd bet it's a loose connection somewhere, just need to find the time to find it.
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Jim was telling me that the spark plug connectors (inside the spark plug wires) tighten down with a flat bladed screwdriver.
Perhaps could be causing weak spark. His were loose.
Steve
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Ok, so now I am really confused ???
First I will say that I have the old school black box ignition (with the vacuum advance)
I checked the coil primary wire resistance on both coils....they both eventually settled at 2.5 ohms (not sure if that is close enough to the 2.8 ohms you spec'd
I then checked the coil secondary wire (spark plug wire) to the coil hold down bolt. Now because I have the old black box I couldn't take off the spark plug wire from the coil (or atleast I didn't want to pull hard enough to find out) so I measured from the metal inside the boot to the hold down bolt and got nothing. Like they weren't even connected. But the more I think about that it makes sense because the combined resistance of the coil and the plug wire should be high (because of the high current that needs to pass through). So I didn't learn much here.
I replaced all four spark plugs with slightly used ones out of an old engine I blew up 2 months ago (couldn't find the replacment ones I wanted yet, need to order online).
I pulled off the starter ground and cleaned the frame connection and the connector to make sure there was a good connection. Then I chesked the ground at the battery and everything was solid.
I also got some starting fluid and sprayed that in during the next step (to no avail)... ???
So after all this I tried firing it up and......nothing, still wouldn't start. So I was getting a little pissed at the car at this point and just started cranking and slamming on the gas pedal (for like 10 minutes....it was a long tantrum) then .....to my surprise it started stumbling a little more.....then a little more....then vroom off she went . Once started she ran like nothing was wrong. Revved all the way up to 10k (to my neighbors amusment I'm sure) and no problems.
So I have no clue what happened. I eventually warmed the engine up and now I am letting it cool back down and I will try it again periodically throught the afternoon and tommorow to see if it has any more problems.
The only thing I can think of came after I read the "what fuel do you use" string in which someone said that sometimes higher octane gas at the pump can sit longer in the ground at the station and get problems. I am wondering if this played into the matter? I don't know but this weekend I am going to drive out of my way to try and get some CAM2 100 octane stuff to mix in with my sunoco 93 octane to see if that helps? I may also get some octane boost from Autozone and add that.
This all seemed to start after I got gas from a different than the usual gas station?
Anyway I will let you guys know if it gets any better once I up the octane of this batch. If it's not that I think I am going to start saving for a redbox and coil ignition system.
Thanks for all your help!!!
Gerad
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Could have just had a little something gummed up in the carbs. Glad you got it started!!!
93 or 98 octane should work just fine. Not really much need to spend the extra for racing fuel. MHO.
You might want to drain your fuel cell between races, and run out what fuel is in the carbs.
Old fuel works great in the lawn mower. lol!!!
Best Of Luck!
Steve
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The repeated "Slamming" on the gas pedal could cause enough vacuum to build up to get it running...possible vac boost/carb issue?
Or maybe thats me, and Im sending you my problems!
Let us know how it goes this weekend
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LOL!
Not entirely sure that Gerard and your problems are not inter-related. All that carb and ignition stuff gets kind of interwoven.
Steve
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Ok, so some good and some maybe not so good info.
I flushed the fuel system with new good fuel and the car was still hard to start. Once warmed up it was fine and would restart no problem. So I warmed up the motor and and covered it with a blanket overnight to hold as much heat in as possible so I could get it started the day of the race (Sunday) it worked...barely. We got to the track and got the car running and I noticed a slight black puff coming out of the exhaust when I would rev it up hard. So I figured I was running a little rich. I also noticed that when I took off from a dead stop the engine would bog down until I got the rpm's up. Other then that the car ran great. Infact it was good enough for me to drive it up to third in my heat and almost 2nd until I got tangled with the 2nd place car when I tried to pass and got sent to the back. In the feature I drove from 10th place up to 5th in 9 laps (and was gaining on 4th place) when the rains came and the race got postponed.
So it's clear that what ever the problem is it is not effecting the car much at full speed under load.
Due to the engine bogging on starts from a dead stop I believe I have a carb issue. This is strange because I have never touched the carbs accept for when I put them on this engine) and it has ran fine for the whole season up till now.
Anyway I am not racing for two weeks so I am going to see if I can take my car to our local legends mechanic (Alfrey Motorsports) and have him take a look at it. Hopefully I won't be broke when I get the car back......$$
I will let ya'll know what we find out!!
Gerad
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sure sounds like carbs....... >:(
Scott
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I wonder if it could be a slight leak in the fuel line. Cranking it forever to get it started reminded me of the fuel pump having to get the line primed when I went to start my new motor. On my street stock years ago I had an issue with a leak in the line not allowing it to stay primed, but that was a block mounted mechanical pump instead of electric pump. Might be worth checking out just in case.
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Especially with the steel braided line if you dont cut the braid away where you are clamping...
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I'm still going with the thought that the carb(s) may be gummed up somewhere (jets, air passages... Not really sure!) or that it is somehow carb related.
Gerad has worked through a lot of thoughts from those who have posted. I know that it is hard to diagnose a problem when you can't see it, hear it, or feel it.
It would be nice if there is a member here on the site that that lives near him, or races at the same track, and could stop by and give him a hand.
That is one of the reasons I am so big on people filling out their profiles! I am clear on the other side of the country. If someone lives near the Dayton, OH area ...
Send him a PM or post.
Sorry to sound grouchy. If I could, I would run over there and help him in heartbeat!
My THANKS to all that have posted!
Steve
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I hope to meet tonight with a local guy that is kind of the "go to" guy when we are at the track when you have problems. I'm not sure how much he know about carbs though? Anyway I figure if he atleast confirms for me that it is a carb issue I mught just send them off to be rebuilt. Or I have been looking and found a couple of guys selling used carbs for around $200. Might not be a bad idea for me to have a second set of carbs anyway......
I will let you know what I find out tonight......and decide to do.
Thank you for everyones help!!
Gerad
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Ok Jim,
Nothing is working so I just shipped the carbs to you. Hopefully I can get them back in time for my two day race on July 10th and 11th ;)
I PM'd you the tracking number and my cell phone number.
Thanks,
Gerad
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Gotcha. I'll call you this weekend when we get them apart.
Thanks,
Jim
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Ok, back to square one........ :'(
Jim went through my carbs cleaned them up and sent them back. Last night I put them on and much to my surprise :o starting the car was only slightly better (it took ~30 minutes to start as apoosed to the 60 minutes two weeks ago). Thank you Jim, when it does start it runs better than it ever has.....!
I also completely removed the "INEX Approved" fuel/ignition cut-off box. That didn't change anything.....
When it is running and warmed up it seems to run just fine. ???
It almost seems as if I need to use more choke (than possible) to get it started (yes I checked my choke adjustment).
or
That there is some sort of timing advance thing that only affects it when it's cold.
I am completely stumped and getting more frustrated each day. I don't think it's my coils because they should run the same cold or hot and the same with the ingnition control box.
I bought a Haynes manual for the 1986 FJ1200 and plan to use it's troubleshooting guide tonight. But I'm begining to loose hope, and running out of money :(
I am going to try and check the timing again tonight as that is pretty much the only thing I can think it would be :-\
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Wonder if the cam timing or valve adjustments could be off far enough to do this? Also check and make sure that none of the cam loabs look worn down. Just guessing at this point.
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Wonder if the cam timing or valve adjustments could be off far enough to do this? Also check and make sure that none of the cam loabs look worn down. Just guessing at this point.
A compression check is in order and will determine if there is any of the aforementioned problems.
From there Gerad shoot me an email; rpm@swaybar.com
Send me your contact info and I can give you a call to try and work through a few things. I will not be back to my shop until Monday and I can get in touch with you then.
Randy - RPM
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Still sounds electrical to me, but a compression check and talking to Randy sure isn't a bad idea
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I am not officially changing the title of this string to "The forum of Failure (and wasting money)"
:'(
So, I got the engine going last night and even though I was having the engine starting problems I thought I would be atleast good enough to race a make-up feature, another feature and then a third feature Sunday (yes thats 3 races worth of points in one weekend). Hoever I am back EARLY from the trach writing in this forum of failure.
:'(
Last night I got a spare set of coils and tried them on the engine.......did not help.
:'(
Today at the track I got the car started and went out for first prictice. Everything felt pretty good and I was gettin in the groove. When I cam back the pits the car kinda bogged down and stalled as I slowed down to enter. And thats all she wrote, From then on I could not get it to restart (even though it was fully warmed up).
So, I bought a new fuel pump and fuel filter from the track vendor (because my local guy thought that was it). Nope, still didn't light up.
I had a very friendly Al Renner came over to help me and we swapped out the carbs for a brand new set he had.....still didn't work. We swapped out the black ignition box (with a known good one he had)......still nothing. We then changded spark plugs again....still nothing....we then switched one of the coils back....still nothing.....(meanwhile my make-up feature in which I was restarting 5th is starting :'( ).....then Al thought the fuel smelled funny so we drained the lines and carb of fuel and ran 110 racing fuel from his jug through the engine........still nothing.
I then sobbed as qualifying started. :'(
We then could only think it was something with compression or timing. At this point Al needed to go and race his own car so I scoured the pits and nobody had a compression tester.
so....
We packed up knowing that there was nothing further we could do at the track.
I got home and checked the compression and this is what we found
Cylinder #1 - 30psi
Cylinder #2 - 15 psi
Cylinder #3 - 15 psi
Cylinder #4 - 45 psi
:'(
Why can't we just run on one cylinder?
:'(
So, I have no idea why the compression is so bad (we never checked it before so we don't know what we started at). But I have no idea how I could have been running so good with such low compression for so long. Or something has happened to kill my compression. I thought that if I had one or maybe two low cylinders it could be the cam timing off but I don't think all of them being low could be the cam timing. So I am going to talk to the local engine builder Sunday and see what he thinks. I will likely pull the engine early in the week and take it up to him.
:'(
Luckily the series director has offered me to use his "old" engine until I can get mine fixed....or pay for it to get fixed......the only downfall is that the engine I may be borrowing has (as said by him) a lot of races on it and it has never been rebuilt. I ask how many and he said....well over 100 races.
But it runs so what's a guy gonna do.
:'(
I'll shoot you an email Randy but with the low compression it sounds like I need a full rebuild $$
:'(
the miserable one (Gerad).....
:'(
I am sure Chris Linely (linley racing on this forum) will take advantage of my misfortune and increase his points lead on me for rookie of the year......right at the time that I caught up with him!
:'(
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that is low, are you sure those numbers are right? I dont think that motor would ever run with numbers like that..15psi?? This motor is the one that ran fine then just started to have problems over the week while at home??The comp did not drop like that while sitting in the shop. I would call Hank Scott and ask him before you invest in a motor. Even if you not a cust. Hank will talk and help you out over the phone
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How did you do the compression check?
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There are a couple of things that can cause the low numbers;
1) Camshaft thrust broke, piece fell down between cam chain & crank causing it to get out of time.
2) Ignition ping burning away the ring lands, head or valves.
I will give you a call tomorrow Gerad.
Randy - RPM
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Or if he didn't do the compression test with all plugs out and wide open throttle...
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Yeah, so I need to re-do the compression check. I did it with wide open throttle but I had the other plugs in while doing it. I will re-do the compression check when I get home tonight and let ya'll know whats going on.
Thanks,
Gerad
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I hope your numbers look much better! :o
All should be within 5% of eachother
Steve
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So I re-did the compression with all the spark plugs out and this is what I got
Cyl #1 - 55 psi
Cyl #2 - 28 psi
Cyl #3 - 20 psi
Cyl #4 - 35 psi
Not much better. I talked with Randy and checked my cam caps (if thats what you call them). Unfortunatly mine look fine. No cracks no signs of breakage. The holes are still there (that are supposed to be).
I did checked the cam timing to TDC and my exhaust side looked odd (he told me to go to TDC and then check the cyl. #4 cam lobes Exhaust and Intake to see if there are parrallel/horizontal to the plane of the valve cover). It looks like the intake side is correctly horizontal to the valve cover plane but the exhaust side looks obviously off? Maybe thats my problem? Even though there are no obvious signs that my cam skipped a tooth or two?
Here are the pics I took showing what I see.
Starting with me making sure it is at TDC and then the intake side #4 cylinder cam lobe location and then the exhaust side #4 cylinder cam lobe location. Well the upload folder is full? So I can't upload the pics right now......
Let me know what you think. I am going to call the engine guy I know to have him take a look at it and find out if I should pull the engine or leave it in the car for him to look at.
:-\
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Did you check the valve lash? Not an engine expert, but I would think that if the cam was a tooth or two off, that the numbers would be bad on all 4 cylinders.
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John,
The numbers are bad. They should be up around 160 - 170.
Steve
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Good point Steve on them all being within the really bad range. The valve shims would not throw them off that badly. As bad as they are, they still seem to vary more than I would think. I was typing before thinking. :P
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165 new, this is a 1200 open motor. Less if the motor has time on it
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I just dropped the car off at Jerry Knuckles and he is going to take a look at it. Hopefully I will hear something in a couple of days.
Gerad
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165 new, this is a 1200 open motor. Less if the motor has time on it
Thats the rule. 165, but not the potential. I've got a 3 season old motor that I could still get to crank at 185 just by adjusting the cam gears.
Don't bury it 'til it's dead Gerad
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Ok, so I got the first half of the news (both good and maybe not so good).
He checked my timing and my Exhaust cam was off 2 teeth or so.......he fixed that (the good) and then ran a leakdown test and discovered I was still leaking by quite a bit (the not so good).....
Today he is going to check my valve lash because he thinks my valves may be off to where they are keeping the valves slightly open (I think I read on of the forums that as time goes on your valve lash actually decreases with wear?). If it isn't one of those he is telling me that I will need to have a complete valve job to fix the problem.
And with over 35 races on the motor (turns out it is a mostly stock bike engine that has never been rebuilt) it would be more appropriate for me to just the whole thing rebuilt.......
Anyway I will let ya'll know what I find out tonight about the valve lash.....I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
Gerad
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If that is a bone stock bike motor and it got 35 races on it...WOW that is a solid motor to rebuild..
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He checked my timing and my Exhaust cam was off 2 teeth or so.......he fixed that (the good) and then ran a leakdown test and discovered I was still leaking by quite a bit (the not so good).....
Gerad
Gerad,
It might have bent the exhaust valves depending on the direction the exhaust cam ended up out of time. If the engine will start & run now it might be worth running it up to temp to make sure there is no debris or build -up on the valve face and/or seat since they might have been in an open position during the ignition cycle and have carbon build up on them.
If it runs, get it warmed up; drive it around a little bit running it through its paces to make sure the valves bang the seats hard enough to clean them.
It might also be a sign of valve build up if the valve lash on the exhaust side is big. The build up will hold the valve away from the cam making the adjustment out of range.
Did he give any indication why the cam changed position?
If you do have to repair the head, as I previously recommended, you should do a complete rebuild.
Randy - RPM
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Even worse news......
Apparently the reason the exhaust cam was off was because the cam bolts broke thus not allowing the cam to turn properly. He said the only thing that even remotly kept the cam turning was the friction in the motor.. :(
He also believes that I damaged some valves when this happened (and he doesn't recomend driving it like that)......so, there goes engine number two for my first season......
Now I just need to see if I can still borrow one to limp through the final 12-13 races.......
Yeah, I guess the only good news is that the motor is a really good candidate for rebuild......except of course it means I will need to buy new pistons as the ones in their are obviously stock....oh, and I need a pinned cam, which I am not sure is included in a rebuild or not (hopefully)......
We'll see what I can work out, all I know now is that I can't afford to get the whol emotor rebuilt just yet. But now that I have experienced racing for the first time....I just can't stop and wait for the money to come in. I need to get back out there.
I'll let you know what I figure out.....
Thanks for all your help!!!
Gerad
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PM sent.
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Sorry to hear that the news was not better.
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After all that stuff I got the engine pulled and the "new" borrowed engine installed. We'll see how it goes this weekend.
I borrowed the engine from the series director (cause he ain't using it) and according to him the engine has over 600 races on it..... :o oh, and did I mention it has never been rebuilt nor have the valves ever been adjusted.....and he doesn't want me to adjust the valves either.....
I don't have a reason to ditrust the guy but 600 seems like alot. I could see maybe 150 or so but damn!!
Supposedly this is the first sealed engine created for legends cars.....
We'll see how it goes. It may end up being "the little engine that couldn't" if you know what I mean. Luckily we are running a track this weekend that isn't a big horsepower track....more handling.
I hope to take the head off my other engine to see how bad the valves are. Maybe it's not as bad as I am told! :-\
I will take a picture of it but the exhaust can mounting slot on my old cam is huge, it looks as if someone was realling trying to mess with the timing. I didn't know they slotted those to adjust the timing. I wish there was just a way you could use a timing light to see what your advance actually is (like the big motors).
Thank you again for everybodies help!!
Gerad
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I wish there was just a way you could use a timing light to see what your advance actually is (like the big motors).
There is
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was reading through this old post jim you said that you can use a timeing light to check your timeing is this correct if so can you explain how i would like to know