LegendsRacer - Legends & Bandolero Racing Forum
LEGENDS => Brakes => Topic started by: Legend79 on December 18, 2012, 03:26:23 pm
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I'm currently sorting out my brakes on my car, I run asphalt ovals, I have sorted out a shoe, pad combo I am happy with and now know I need to use better brake fluid. I have normal 600 callipers on the car, what are the advantages of the brakeman callipers? If any? Has anyone run both a found a big difference?
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Advantage...it depends on who you talk to, none in my opinion.
Disadvantage...your wallet will be much lighter.
There are many out there building calipers and we all do similar things. Several guys on this forum run my calipers after BM and cannot tell the difference...
Except they have more money in their wallet than the BM customer.
Randy - RPM
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At this point in the game i would NOT purchase any calipers, I would rebuild what you have and when the new kit is available from USLC you can make a decision based on further feedback. I will tell you, the 2.25 or 2 1/4 bore caliper is the worst of the litter, the tolerances are TERRIBLE and even after rebuild they are not very good, I am a USLC dealer and this one product is junk.
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Will the new calliper take the pads we currently use (Toyota shaped) ? I've heard it will be march by the time we get those, our season starts then
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No, they will be a Wilwood or possibly a brake man. These are the two builders that are being looked at the closest. They will not look like what we use now, I would imagine different compounds will be available through other sources. THEY WILL NOT COST WHAT THEY COST NOW, IN OTHER WORDS THERE WILL NOT BE $200 DOLLAR PADS BE BOUGHT! Keep in mind you certainly can run and keep running what you have now, this will be optional!
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...IN OTHER WORDS THERE WILL NOT BE $200 DOLLAR PADS BE BOUGHT!
Lets mark those words right now...
I bet you a beer by the end of the year there will be.
Randy - RPM
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This is extremely frustrating to me..... Instead of solving the problem by limiting the amount that can be spent on brakes, we are gonna make people throw away everything we have now, and buy new stuff...... Great way to save the racer money...
I know, I know, we don't HAVE to buy these, but we all know we really do if we want to stay competitive, and isn't that why we race to begin with?
I agree...... it'll be a matter of time before these brakes cost the same or more than what we are using now...... As soon as someone develops better pads, or better rotors, and they end up on cars, the price will be right back where it is now........
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I am telling you, you are panicing before the issue happens. These brakes WILL be VERY VERY good and they will be JUST AS GOOD OR BETTER than the after market stuff. they will be purposed for the application and they will be between $300 and $400 complete. There are other series running this stuff and they are happy and the cost is as described. What are you guys paying the BIG builders to rebuild your 1200's? I am talking COMPLETE rebuild. The average rebuild on a 1250 is $2500 to $2800 at USLC. I process them weekly, I just processed one yesterday.
1250 was a mess,
Total rebuild- PLUS
NEW CRANK
NEW RODS
CLUTCHES
NEW SLEEVES
this included new starter and timing chains along with ALL the other typical components
Break in oil AND DYNO'D
Total bill $3400.00
this was the worst one I have done, the extreme. The crank and rods were junk. Read my post about the 1200 I had completed in that section.
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You keep saying everybody will have to get these brakes. Have you bought the high dollar systems that are out right now. Like me Im sure you have not. I am not going to spend that kinda of money on 1973 brakes. I am glad to see this new system because I am willing to spend $400 for good brakes. If you still run stock brakes now I dont see why you think you will have to buy the new system.
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I don't run stock brakes, I have invested in the better ones, and now will be forced to spend even more money again to stay competitive, so in fact I am being forced to spend money to stay with the front pack........
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If you already have upgraded from the USLC standard issue brakes, you shouldn't need to purchase anything to stay where you are currently running on the track. If you're a top 5 guy, you will stay that way all other things being equal
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A 300 dollar price tag is hard to believe, if they pull that off I would be hugely surprised…..
Per the online catalog here is the cost of the current brake system
Caliper 55.00
Caliper Bracket 15.00
Backing Plate Bracket 15.00
Shim 5.00
That is 90 per side x2 we are at 180.00, plus pads at 70.00, we are now at 250.00, bone stock.
Am I naïve to think that a brake system that is head and shoulders above what is out now will be only 50 more dollars?
When new aftermarket pads are developed for these brakes, will they be legal? They are now….. When people start reworking the calipers will that be legal? It is now….. rotors, etc. the costs will continue to rise.
So let me get this straight… I throw out a system that costs me, let’s say 350.00 (which is low for most of us here), and buy a new system from INEX at 300-400, so I am looking at a total cost to me, the average weekly racer, of 650-750 dollars……
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Jim,
I hope you are right... I'm not gonna invest in this new system until it is proved to me to be better.
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Why would you throw out the system you have now if it works for you and you are happy? IF you at some point decide to upgrade or you have failure LIKE so many people have and you need to make a choice, this will be available. IT WILL NOT BE LONG BEFORE THE CURRENT CALIPER AS NO LONGER AVAILABLE!!! Follow me here please.
You are USLC, you are building cars every day, you are selling multiple brake calipers every day, the manufacturer says to you- we do not know how long this product will be available to you. On the other side you have others selling a product that cost $800.00 and up, they are selling them everyday, the same customer buying the $800.00 system is bitching because they spent $800.00 to compete with the guy in the next pit stall. The customers are telling you, you are USLC- we need to fix this its wrong. ADD ALL OF THIS UP AND PROVIDE A SOLUTION.
Solution they came up with-
Provide a racing application product at a reasonable price.
Make it optional.
Make sure it will be available in qunaity for years to come, for retail sales and the building of new cars.
If anyone has a better business plan I am sure USLC would be interested, jumping to the unknown of expensive add on components for this product is wrong at this point and only specualtion.
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Dennis are they going to go to disc in the rear? I know that the mod-lite cars use the same rear and they have disc so the technology is out there already. It would be nice if they did go to disc all the way around.
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I could be wrong, but I believe the Thunder Roadster is rear disc already, so they have it at their disposal. I think I read in an earlier thread that they are not going to be doing anything with the rears at this time
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Oh thanks, now you want to talk rear brakes. can we wait till my ars grows back a little, its been chewed on alot lately. Just kidding. They started this whole thing by testing the rear. There was some braking improvement overall, at the time this was happening it became evident they needed to address the fronts sooner. The rear backing plates are being made by an outside vendor, carbotech is making the shoes and the drums are readilly available by multiple vendors. Couple that with the thought of putting out one fire at a time and they are going to update the fronts for now. I would guess at some point the rears would follow. I am NO Dwarf car expert, but it appears you can easilly buy two calipers, pads and mounting brackets for the front for $300 - $400 no problem.
Just passing the info on guys as I know it, I am sure there are details I will get wrong and things could change as they work through the process. I get a little offensive because I hate to see people speculate this into more than it is, and yees everyone is entiltled to their opinion and views.
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Thanks Dennis for keeping everyone updated. Any news about when these things go on sale.
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No need to get upset, we are all in this for the same reasons, just a difference of opinion....
I think speculating what will come down the road is necessary.... You've gotta see the forest through the trees.... If you don't look any further than the present you will make bad, bad decisions...... I hope these posts are archived, because I see exactly where this is heading.... Exactly where the brake system is now...... aftermarket companies will make options for these brakes, because people will demand them, and there is money to be made.... Exactly what has happened this time....
have you ever heard the definition of insanity...... Doing the same thing again and expecting different results......... They started once upon a time with a "budget brake system" and look where it has ended..... Hey, let's do it again and see what happens.......
I'll say it again, put a claimer on the brakes calipers and pads..... want to spend that much, fine, but they can be claimed for a fair "stock" price. THAT would stop the progression of these higher priced components to these systems, etc......
Solutions have been given to this in other threads, I am too tired of repeating it..... I have also read on here that the calipers last forever, I have never had a problem with a brake system designed to stop a full sized car stopping my little legend, and that rebuild kits are available, and will be for some time. If it were exactly clear that these calipers are gonna disappear there would not be other people saying that there are plenty to be had.
What frustrates me is that I got into Legends because it was a class that was spec. Cars are suppose to be the same, and the driver made the difference. Look where we are now....
spooled vs welded rear ends
Light wheels vs. Heavy Wheels
1250 sealed vs 1200 open vs 1219 sealed?? (just learned about the 1219 sealed today on here....)
Now, stock brakes vs. brakeman brakes vs. presumed "Wilwood brakes"...
aren't we getting away from the whole idea of spec? It is starting to head towards the direction of who has the deeper pockets can afford a better car, and therefore be quicker. I watched the late models head this same direction in this area and they are now all but non-existent in this part of the world.
again, I bet I have a lot in common with all of you in racing... We all love to race, and are passionate about it, I just hate that the costs of racing to continue to rise exponentially....... Have purses followed??? is the economy that good right now?????? Just wondering if this is the best approach to be taking...
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Very well said Slack11....Couldn't agree with you more! ;D
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The callipers won't be available to me until sometime in march so I will I have to start the season on what I can get now, I need to check the bore of my calliper to be sure of which one I have, if its the 2" I may struggle as the only we can get here now are the 2 1/4 from our dealer, I don't particularly want to buy those callipers if there going to change in a few months time. The new callipers may cost money to buy but if there modern and upto date I would imagine the pads become cheaper as they would be a common shape? So pads aren't being made just for one car but compounds would already be out there on mass? Or I maybe completely wrong!! Ha ha, either way I will agree with Dennis, waiting seems to be the best option if you can.
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The size should be stamped on the caliper somewhere, at least the ones I have are
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The aftermarket parts for brakes, the rules state that pads and shoes are free? Not attached to spindle, so if all the cars are to be the same use the same calliper, would this not put an end to it? Or what happens in some formulas over here (I would think maybe you have some the same) if people want to buy different, let them but put a cap on what you can spends on certain parts, that way no one can spend out on exspensive parts. For example max of £100 on a a set of pads, then no one can buy £200 pads.
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Dennis,
Maybe you can Mr Haggan, Mr Chapman or Mr Reinhardt to respond an email I sent regarding the Brakes.
Robert
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You are all getting bent out of shape for something that has not happened yet. IF you truly want to make a difference in what rules are made, you need to be talking to the powers that be at INEX and USLCI. We can beat the shit out of this here on the forum and it will make no difference. Voice your opinions where it counts.
Steve
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Actually Steve, I think this is by far the most civil conversation about the new brakes we have had so far!
Bottom line is this: I'd bet that the majority of Legends drivers are already using something other than the stock caliper that the car was purchased new with from USLC.
Like it or not, USLCi is a business. As a business, you have to look around and see what the competition is doing. They (USLCi) are losing revenue daily by not having a better brake option available, so they have to do something to try to re-gain some of the market share. If they can somehow do this for only $400 and have it be a decent product, that would be a major coup for them, especially since the price to replace everything with their current stock parts is close to $300.
There will always be people that have to have the newest, latest and greatest things...Hell, look at the iPhone! You can get a new iPhone 4 for one shiny penny now that the iPhone 5 is out, and nobody wants the "old" stuff. There will always be someone that can and will outspend you, be it on brakes, motor, chassis modifications, etc.
Put your car on jackstands. Spin the front wheels. Do they spin freely? If not, time to check out your bearings and brake system. The biggest advantage to a good caliper is lack of drag. Some people will rebuild their calipers with a $10 kit and polish the piston, and they will do just fine. Others will spend $1000 and will do fine also. Just because a new system is going to be available, does not make it necessary, or better than you already have. A good maintenance plan and some time in the garage can do wonders for a racer.
Don't rush out and buy it just because it's there. See how you run at the beginning of the season, then make any necessary adjustments at that time.
Any way you slice it, this is still the best bang for your buck for racing anywhere.
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I'm not getting bent out of shape, not upset, just voicing an opinion on a topic regarding what we all do and love to spend our hard earned money on.... Isn't that the purpose of a forum, to voice your opinion on things?
I don't think Dennis is bent out of shape, he is the same way that I am, just stating what he believes. If we can't race, we might as well debate about it, right? ( I can't wait till spring to get here......). I have no ill feelings towards anyone on here, matter of fact Dennis has helped me quite a few times on here regarding a bunch of stuff, and I am truly grateful for the advice. I do believe that he has our interests as racers first, and it is real nice to have someone tell us what's coming down the pipeline, even if he gets raked across the coles a few times for it.... :)
I'll write INEX and voice my opinion, but unless I include a check that is the size of Wilwood's contribution to INEX, I doubt it will make a difference......
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Jim,
I agree. This is a more civil conversation than the last thread. I think you summed things up pretty well.
Nate,
These topics about possible rule changes do get people wound up at times. Just want to make sure everyone is voicing their opinions to the rule makers. One voice may not make a difference, but 100 or more just might.
With that said, I do think that a brake upgrade would be a positve move for the pavement cars. Not so sure there would be a big difference with the dirt cars.
Current Wilwood pads run anywhere from about $26 - $109 per set for the single piston calipers. As we still don't know which calipers they have been testing. we will just have to wait and see what happens.
Steve
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Jim, I'm the $10 guy. I polished my own brakes and put the best $40 dollar pad I could get on it and made it spin free. I did OK down at the winter nationals last year with some high dollar guys. I just do what I can and drive the shit out of it......... ;D
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Where do I sign up, I'm in!. For some of the asphalt guys who don't have the good brakes you don't know what your missing out on. That was buy far one of the best things I did to my car, and I have no regrets. Now will I go out and get the new one...yep and I will keep my old one 's too. This is racing here people look at how far its come, from no seat belts to full on 6 pt harness to motors that spin 11000 rpm. I have a garage full of old out dated parts that guys just keep improving on most of the time is for the better some times it not. I've come to grips with racing a long time ago that if you don't keep up with the changes you WILL get left behind.
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I like the idea of putting in a specific part number for brake calipers in the rules which would return this portion of the car to what this series was intended to be , a spec series. Once Wilwood comes out with the INEX stamped brake calipers, I guess that will be the standard aftermarket caliper. Any brakeman products out there could be given a one year run off and after that ALL would have to run the spec Wilwood or the existing Toyota caliper if they so choose. Also, establish a few brake pad compounds to be defined in the rules also as standard to be use on Legend cars to cover both dirt and asphalt applications and be done with it. End of discussion.
Just my opinion...
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At this point Mark, that would cost a heck of a lot more money for everyone than any idea out there, I would bet your calipers would even be illegal.
95% of the drivers out there would have to throw away their brakes and buy new ones with this idea.
Every manufacturer of the "stock" caliper has a different part number, be it Brake Man, Raybestos, Beck Arnley...they should all be illegal?
USLC will come out with their brakes, some will buy it, some won't.
Dennis says its better than everybodys brakes out there, so no need to outlaw or ban anything.
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I want to back up a number of posts...
Yes, rear disc brakes are allowed on Thunder Cars.
I see the benefit on asphalt more than on dirt. This thread is dealing with front brakes for now.
Modlites and Dwarf Cars are running more 8 bolt rear ends now than the 10 bolt. They are lighter weight, but less gear selections for the 8 bolt than the 10 bolt.
We still don't know which Wilwood or BrakeMan calipers and pads INEX is looking at. I am still very curious about that. There are single and dual piston calipers (Dynalite and Dyna Pro would be my thinking on the main contenders). Aluminum calipers would surely cut some unsprung weight. Single piston calipers would not supply as much stopping power as a dual piston caliper. (More clamping force)
I am talking the wilwood equivilants of the stock Toyota caliper, not the 4 or 6 piston calipers.
As with caliper choice, there is also brake pad choice. Lots of different pads out there. Compounds, price... Would be hard to regulate a certain brake pad compound. (I would think) Prices on pads vary depending on the manufacturer and where you buy them from, etc... I posted some current prices from Speedway Motors on current prices for Wilwood pads for the single piston caliper.
It is going to be interesting to see what they (INEX) will come up with for their rules on the front brakes.
Random Thoughts
Steve
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I like the idea of putting in a specific part number for brake calipers in the rules
Just checked the new Brake Man and new USLC calipers I have in stock, and none of them have a part number on the caliper itself
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Seen new ones today small pads like Brando pads said it was the old calipers used to use on thunder roadsters don't know if true or not first set of pads were so aggressive they wore grooves in rotors have to have mounting plate on back of spindle