LegendsRacer - Legends & Bandolero Racing Forum
BANDOLEROS => General => Topic started by: 3nracing97 on June 21, 2009, 03:12:53 pm
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The track we run on is really too fast for bandos and we already run restrictors. We are thinking about using a gear rule to slow them down further.
The cars are running about 72 mph average lap speed and last night a driver got hurt. The track young guns point leader and a very good driver spun and hit the wall coming out of 4. He hit flat on the drivers side door area and was knocked out for a while. Haven't heard much more on his condition.
The kids are flat out the whole lap and we are getting the cars faster. They on on the edge so at least if we slow them down they will have better control of them. I know there will be more contact but at a slower speed they could at least have more grip and control of the cars.
Does anyone have any ideas or experience with the gear rule stuff so we can hear if there are any problems or ways around it too make the cars faster with the gear rule.
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We went the hospital last nite after the race. Mitchel got to see him. Mitchel said that Logan could not remember the race. The doctors did a ct scan last nite and they got to leave around 3am. Then they went back this morning because they thought they saw something, but everything is clear. Lets keep praying.
Now, that gear rule thing. One post on here is that blue plate was REALLY slow. Please don't take this the wrong way, but how will the kids learn car control at such a slow speed if everyone is running the same setup,gears and pretty much the same tire pressure. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Bandit class run the same plate and everything?
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i talked with logans dad today andhe said he was doing ok just very sore. both classes are on the same plate. i dont think we want to change plates or slow them to the point of being boring. but i think a good idea to slow them down a second to a second and half a lap. from 18.8 to the 20 to 20.5 would be good laps time in my opionion. i dont want to see another kid go to the hospital. i know accidents will happen but if we can have a slight chance at preventing it it would make our lifes easier at the racetrack. i think what we are after is a chance at better car control in the event of a accident. please keep the young driver in your prayers as they still have a road of recovery togo. thanks brad
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I understand what you are saying but they are not really learning that much car control out there now. When you have to lift and use brakes is when you really learn car control.
I really believe that they would be learning the same at a slower speed. At least then they would be able to catch the car if it gets loose. They would also learn how to race each other. They could learn give and take a little more and not tear the car completely up or get hurt. Right now, if they touch or get loose it is awful hard to recover.
I am with you on the other plate, that is why we are looking at the gear rule. We really need a smaller track to run on so we can take the plates off but all we have is the big track.
The Bandits are the same cars just younger drivers, this would affect them too. If you don't want to go the gear rule that is fine, we can keep it like it is because this would have to be something everyone agrees with. We are just looking at options and trying to come up with something safer.
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Don't take this the wrong way either. But it's crazy that as long as the bandos have been running there that it would take something like this to try and slow them down now. Whatever the drivers and the track and INEX agrees with will be fine.
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Your right it shouldn't have taken this long, but it also shouldn't have taken Nascar 3 deaths to see that head and neck restraints should be used.
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i am in the same boat i wish it wouldnt have took this long for something to be done. but at the same time i am sitting trying to figure out the bandos have went from 20 second plus lap times last year to under 19 second laps time at this point. i want the kids to have fun and have a good time racing but i cant stand the thought of another child going to the hospital. this will take everyone effort including the track or we might continue to lose cars. this might work and it might not work. it would be interesting to see how it works at other tracks to see if it would work at our track. brad
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I hope that Logan is going to be alright. I, too, don't like to see anyone suffer from an accident of any kind, especially children. !!!
My thoughts and prayers that he will have a speedy recovery without incident!
Short of cutting engine size; Restrictor plates and gearing are about the only options. Parental guidence is helpful. What I mean by that is not the "Win At ALL Cost" attitude that some parents take with ANY sport. Besides running up the risks, it also runs up the costs. We all know that there ARE risks involved. I think that the track also needs to take an active role in track safety and driver education. I think that INEX could play a role in the education factor. A lot of the "Big" tracks are taking an active interest in improving driver safety. It is going to take the parents AND INEX to do something about the situation. Safety should ALWAYS be of the most importance to drivers, parents, and track officials; Regardless of what class you are racing. The only way I see to bring about change is to voice your oppinion to the governing body. I know that we, (our family) here at legendsracer, would like to stay out of the politics. It IS a very important concern though!!!
For my small part here on the site, I would like to see some ideas on the changes that need to be made (ALL oppinions are welcome!!!!). I will be more than happy to pass them on to whom ever I can, to ALWAYS improve a safe environment to ANY racer.
Steve
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Instead of changing the gears, or a diff plate, what about a throttle stop to where the throttle is only open about 80 to 90%. Steve, what are your thoughts? Maybe the car owner can put it on and maybe the track set it and have somekind of seal. Seal it like the engine is from 600.
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Sounds like ya'll need something to put the speeds somewhere between the red plate (too fast) and the blue plate (too slow). One compromise may be to run the blue plate, but mount it above the black spacer instead of below it. This would make the cars a little faster than with the standard blue plate placement, but should be slower than the red plate. Of course, its not the proper order that INEX requires, but for your track, with your drivers, and your kids, it may be the best solution. Some track testing and honest dialogue with Daryl would then be the appropriate avenue. Just my opinion.
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Scott,
That is an interesting and easy soluition. Mike has a good idea also. I would be interested to hear from some of the others (Drivers and Parents).
Steve
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That would be a great idea. Someone has already put the red plate in the wrong place and left everyone in the dust. that just might work.
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That is a good idea but it would probably put us right back where we are now. By moving the plate you gain around 500 rpm. The problem with a throttle stop is that these engines are not all the same and the carbs are different. So what might be a good place on one motor might not be good for another.
What if the gear rule was more of a driver rule? Say we have to run a 14 or 13 driver but any axle gear is ok.
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So you want to leave the plate and go to a 13 or 14 front driver and any gear on the rear? And have the tech guys take that clutch off right after a race? Can you see them playing "hot potato" with your clutch!
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Hello all,
I am Logan's dad and first, I want to thank all of you for your prayers and concerns. Yes, all the safety gear worked as it should have, but nothing works like prayer to the Great Physician. Logan is walking away from this crash with no lasting injuries at all. He has amnesia for the 35-45 minutes between getting in his car and arriving at the hospital, so he has no emotional trauma. Those drivers that had to see him taken through the windshield on a back board with his head taped to the board probably have more emotional trauma to deal with. He is ready to race this Saturday. His car however, is weeks away from being ready. I dont know if I can strap him in a car again though. I do know he will not drive again without a full containment seat.
I agree that we need to slow the cars down some. Something like 20.5 lap times would be safer in my opinion. Some testing with different gear ratios would find the correct gear combo to slow the cars to whatever target lap time we ( or INEX ) choose. Then, mandate that combo with the current plate. I'm willing to help in any way I can to make the changes necessary to keep our children safe.
Again thanks for all the prayers.
Jimmy
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Jimmy,
Thanks for the update on Logan. Always good to hear about quick recoveries and non-lasting injuries!
I think that kids are fairly tough. They heal up a lot quicker than us old guys. lol!
Think about some of the crazy stuff we did as kids. Surprising we have lasted this long!
As for slowing the cars; Here is what I am seeing in the rules:
16. GEAR SPROCKETS: Any combination of stock axle
gear sprockets may be used (unless a “gear rule†is in place at
a particular track).
(page 73)
3. CLUTCH GEAR: The only clutch gear permitted
is the 12, 13, 14 or 15 tooth as delivered by 600 Racing.
The only clutch springs allowed are the ones as delivered
by 600 Racing. The clutch otherwise must remain in its
stock configuration as currently sold by 600 Racing, Inc.
No other modifications are permitted to the clutch (i.e.-
use of a non-slip clutch, welding of the clutch). The clutch
shoes must remain unaltered with the exception of regular
maintenance by sanding the shoe face. The shoe must not
be thinner than .180†to be measured at either end of the
shoe (both ends must be .180†or more). Certain racetracks
may require a mandatory gear combination.
(page 78)
I think perhaps a gear rule for each track may be the better option. I also thought about breaking the divisions:
1. BANDITS: (Drivers between the ages of 8 - 11).
2. YOUNG GUNS: (Drivers between the ages of 12 - 15).
3. OUTLAWS: (Drivers age 16 and older).
(page 66?)
into sub categories, or less powerful classes. Newer/or younger drivers driving less powerful cars... And then graduating up to more powerful cars as they gain experience. Like I say, Just a thought. Kind of like moving up in the karting ranks.
Tristan suggested to me, in a PM, that perhaps more safety measures could be an option. More padding, bars, etc... As he is new to racing and driving this year, I am interested in his opinion. He seemed to suggest that the speed wasn't so much a factor. Although, as a parent; I think it would be a consideration to us. As a racer, that's what I love about racing... The Speed! Adrenaline Rush!!!
Something else to consider is that new/ or younger drivers tend to get tunnel vision... They focus more on what "they" are doing, and not so much on what is happening on the track. It is a problem that I see in any type of racing. I think it is also a factor in young drivers on the street also. As we mature ( and /or grow ) in our driving experiences, we tend to pay more attention to what is going on around us and anticipate problems. At least in a race car we don't have the distraction of cell phones, (for the most part) Radios, or the distractions of others in the car. It's an educational process as well as a maturing process.
I really DON'T have an answer... I think it will be up to parents voicing their concerns to INEX and the various tracks to come up with some sort of solution.
Steve
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I don't think a "throttle stop" would work because of the many ways to manipulate the throttle cable and throttle shaft-- tech nightmare!!! Gear rule won't help because everyone will be on the rev limiter at the finish line and it'll become a blocking and bumping contest.
Another option is to run a "chip" in the rev box, say 4600 rpm, or whatever it takes to slow the cars to the desired speed.
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The chip may be the best bet! Limit the RPMs - limit the top end speed.
Question;
Should the speeds be graduated (increased) as experience is gained? Not necessarily related to age.
Steve
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We tested last night and the INEX tech official decided on a 14 63 gear. Jacob was running 20.50's with that and the 96 was consiatantly .2 to .3 sec. faster than us so that sould put us in the 20.20 range. The 96 did try a 13 63 and was on the rev limiter before the corner and was on it through mid corner and ran 20.6. The track did say we are going to try this for 5 weeks and then we will have a meeting and see if there should be any changes.
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Let us know how things turn out. I still think that changing the chip is the best way to go. Obviously there would be gearing changes that come along with that.
:-\ ???
Steve
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I'm all for the gear rule for safety. Mitchel and I have talked about this since the wreck. And we will probably be in the hunt for a legends car pretty soon.
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Changing from a car you already think is too fast, to a car that is even quicker....
Think that's wise at this point?
Steve
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Well,in my thinking, If they go to a gear rule and are trying to slow the cars down. Then a gear rule will really bunch up the field and there will be alot more beating and banging. Because everyone will be in a tight blob.
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It's kind of a trade off...
IF parents want slower cars for young/ or new drivers, then the field will likely get bunched up and the resulting beating and banging will be a result there of.
So, I still have to asked the question; Should the speeds be graduated (increased) as experience is gained? Not necessarily related to age. Along with that comes questions of who decides. Would it be based on finishes, what the track officials think, what the parents think... ??? I don't think that putting a young, or inexperienced, driver in a faster, more powerful car is the solution. Then, to throw them out there with experienced drivers... Gonna get some folks pretty upset! Not to mention a greater chance for injury.
I'm still going to suggest that changing the chip on the rev limiter; and/or graduating the field, look like viable options as opposed to just a gear rule. The biggest down side is that there are a lot of tracks with very few cars. Chance and Tristan have eluded to the fact that sometimes they have as few as 4 cars and other times as many as 7. Not great car counts! In that respect; Tracks, and Track Promoters, have a rough job in trying to justify running the class at all. I would like to hear Tracy's thoughts on that.
If you really want to get some heated debate going... There are a number of race fans that go to see the wrecks. I, personally, like to go watch a clean, well run race. As a driver/ owner; I don't have the money and time to be repairing equipment on a regular basis. If I were a track owner or promoter; I would like to see the people filling my stands get there excitement. As I said; It's going to be a trade off. Where you draw the line... I don't know! I don't think most people want to see a driver injured... But, the wrecks can be pretty spectacular! Just ask some of our members who have been there and done that. !!!
I posed the question over on legendsnation. Have gotten responses that include such comments as "you don't want my opinion" (guessing not a Bando fan) to similar suggestions that are being made in this thread. I would like to see some kind of compromise come out of this question, and the comments that are being made by those concerned.
Have fun!!! .... But Be Safe!!!
Steve
Answer??? Looks like this debate could take a while. INEX, the parents, the racers, and the track owners are going to have to hash this one out
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In my non-Bandolero-educated opinion, the restrictor plates would be the most logical choice. Easy to tech, easy to change from track to track, and affordable. I don't think graduating performance based on experience, or sub-categorizing divisions will do the sport any good, with the car counts as low as they are now, might as well do autocross if you're going to go that direction....hey wait...maybe thats what Steve wants, more guys to autocross with!
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LOL!
Jim,
I have been learning a lot about the Bandos myself. This year (so far) Has Been Very Educational... With the help of our Bando members.!!! ;) I don't think they will let me run a Bando car... Too Old! LOL!!! As far as the non-traditional (INEX)... SCCA could be an option for people like me that don't have tracks that run Legends, Bandos or Thunder Cars; Or are a long distance away. It's a 4 to 6 hour trip to the nearest tracks for me.
Steve
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Just got off the phone with the people at Monroe and they have a gear rule in effect for 5 weeks. From what Mr. Rusty said it will be a 14/63 combo.
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Just got home from our race at Monroe with the new gear rule in effect. We started 3rd, and after we swapped the 2nd place with Mr. Nixon a couple of times. We finished 2nd. There was a wreck that never happened. Both Mitchel and Jacob did a great job. Jacob had a great save in turns 3 and it continued into turn 4 sideways. But he was able to save it.
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Sounds like a good night!
So do you think the gear rule is a good thing?
Steve
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nice job never heard of a gear rule do they just make you run one gear
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Yea, you have a 14 clutch and a 63 rear sprocket. The "wreck" that didn't happen would have been bad if we were still running whatever gear you wanted. It all comes down to setup, fresh tires and a fresh motor. And a good driver and running a "good" line on the track.
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yes
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Well, the car is still in one piece. I've been off for a while. So I've got to make up for lost time. Long story made short. We have been running good and finally got the car in the front pack. We will be doing double duty this weekend. Karts in the morning, then bando at night at Monroe.
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Sounds like fun!!!
Be Safe and Race Fast! ;)
Steve
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We had a bando hit the wall in the middle of turns 3 and 4 going full speed head on. He was going well over 70mph. He hit the wall hard enough to bounce off the wall and barrel roll over 1 once. He was ok and just had a tiny scratch on his leg and thats all. It crushed the front end in and even mashed the back bumper in.
It was a nasty crash but his HANS helped a lot!
Tristan
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Making a different restrictor plate should not be a big deal. A throttle stop is exactly the same thing, but is often a little to easy to adjust. Another alternative would be a rev limiter with a lower dropout point.
A smaller restrictor or a throttle stop will effect the entire powerband and a rev limiter only effects the top end. From what I have seen, the starts aren't the issue, it is the top end speed being beyond the control point of the tire to weight ratio at speeds where a slip can cause major damage.
Outside the box here, just brainstorming, but if you set a max post-race tire pressure, that could be a tool to slow them down. It will also slow them faster when they get off the gas vs. other options discussed. If you use nitrogen to inflate your tires, there is much less gain during a race.