Author Topic: Having to start in the rear?  (Read 11616 times)

Offline IraceLegends77

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Having to start in the rear?
« on: December 18, 2013, 06:30:39 am »
I would like to get some peoples thoughts on this before going to INEX. There are some series out there that if you have never raced with them  you are required to start in the rear of the field and sometimes for mutable events. I would like some input from you guys on this. I feel that if you have raced Legends for years then you should be able to qualify and race where you qualify. This is not a local series and you are trying to get national points then you should not be handicapped. I do understand starting guys that have never raced anything before or are coming up from a lower division for the first time to go to the rear but only for one event. If you have been running Legends for years and you qualify near the front and your from out of town and they come to you and say you need to start in the rear I just don't think that is right. Let me have your feed back as I said I would like to see this put in the rule book but should have a better chance that I hit the mega millions last night. Thanks


Scott Wilkerson #77   Vision Graphix Racing


Offline amp racing

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Re: Having to start in the rear?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2013, 07:59:46 am »
in new England that's the way its done.. if their are heat races to the rear, if you are safe you can take your spot...[nelcar,waterford and Seekonk]


knoxracing

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Re: Having to start in the rear?
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2013, 08:24:38 am »
I would say you pretty much summed it up. I know several series require rookies to start in the rear for six events, I believe at one time this was an Inex suggestion. I do not think you will get any help from Inex on this subject as line-ups and procedures are pretty much left up to the tracks and promoters. The A-1 thing that irritates the hell out of me are promoters and or track owners that think huge inversions are fair in the least way. It is done for one reason and one only "for the fans", WELL let me tell you! If your drivers tear there cars to hell week after week trying to pass someone that is a second slower and or he tears up the guys that are placed in the front and have NO business being there, YOU HAVE NO CARS! I do NOT believe there should be zero inversion, I think you have to be smart enough to look at the overall times and draw a safe line and that's your inversion. WHY in the hell cant track owners or promoters figure out that divisions like Legends are made up of a lot of hobby racers who are doing this on a limited budget, getting wrecked or causing a wreck will eventually cost you car count. Oh and then what happens, the Legends are treated like crap because "your car counts are low, bring more cars and make it a better show". Again I do believe there should be an inversion, but come on half the field to a full field inversion. These are open wheel cars with short a  wheel base and garbage tires, I call B.S.!

Offline IraceLegends77

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Re: Having to start in the rear?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2013, 09:04:15 am »
I do get the inversion for the show but what I'm talking about is if I pull somewhere and want to get some more National points. Why do I have to start in the back of anything if I have been running Legends for years? It just doesn't seem fair and does put my car and me at risk. We would invert the top six and I really never saw any problem with that. If they are worried about local points then just don't count the out of town cars for local points. Again this is a national series and should be treated as such.
Scott Wilkerson #77   Vision Graphix Racing

knoxracing

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Re: Having to start in the rear?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2013, 10:08:11 am »
I agree Scott, I addressed that in the beginning of my post. I do no think Inex will help as it is a track / promoter rule and they allow them to do this. We raced at a track in eastern PA. that had  jacked up system for starting procedures, it was so stupid. A lot of times these tracks make rules thinking they are protecting there weekly cars and allowing them to compete for points. What they fail to see is that the Legends series is based on being able to travel and compete anywhere under the same rule umbrella. I have been to tracks that implement procedures and I have said "I will never race here again". That's wrong, you want racers to return and bring other cars with them.


Offline IraceLegends77

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Re: Having to start in the rear?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2013, 11:12:26 am »
Totally agree Dennis, It would be nice to travel and gather points from all over and best of all meet people from other tracks. I just hate when you show up and qualify and then are told you will be starting in the rear because your not from there. The best excuses that I heard was "we don't how you race" but I'm betting these people have never raced a national event. That is one of the best things that I like about a national event is you have to pick you way through other drivers.
Scott Wilkerson #77   Vision Graphix Racing


Offline Earnst85

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Re: Having to start in the rear?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2013, 02:44:54 pm »
I think the only time you will get "a fair and just" starting spot is at a national event. Most events that are geared towards drawing in cars from other regions will have a format to support strangers. Most big money or national events will have time trials or qualifying sessions to establish a "pecking order." They use those to set the heat or qualifying race lineups and then its up to the driver to earn their starting spot in the feature or mains.

As far as visting other areas, your always at the mercy of the local system. The reason? Most local clubs allow the tracks to dictate the event. The local clubs already have to talk the tracks into becoming INEX sanctioned ($$$) and talk them into hosting the events (adding to schedule & insurance risk). Legends cars are a support division at most places, so the tracks are "doing us a favor" by allowing the local clubs to run there. So unless the club can talk the track into a special format, your stuck with the track's choice.

Between our 2 local clubs here in PA (dirt), Central PA Legends allow the tracks to use its format and Keystone Legends does its own points handicapping to set the fields. Both systems have pros & cons, but that is what the clubs have negotiated with the tracks.

Central PA Legends uses the track format which in most cases uses the dreaded (or not) pill draw. The starting order for heat races are set by nothing more than your luck (or lack there of = me) of pulling a number from a hat. From there, its up to the driver to qualify and the track system for inverts & such. There is a 3 race rule for rookies to start in the back of heat races (rookies to legend cars).

Keystone Legends uses a points system based on your last 3 series race finishes. The worse you finish, the farther forward you start in the heat race. If you miss a race, you recieve max points, which starts you closer to the rear. This rewards drivers for attending all the races. After the heat races, the top 12 qualifiers (from the heat races) are set by the points system. It starts "slow cars" up front, but only if they are fast enough to finish well in their heat race. Keystone has a rookie rule also, but i'm not sure of the criteria.

As far as going elsewhere and being penalized to the rear.... I can think of some possible reasons.  Throughout the years I have seen multiple scenarios for penalizing strangers & my examples are not just in legend cars:
     1. Local clubs do not want "ringers" to come in only for one race and disrupt points battles. I've seen this in support series to   
        prevent "more skilled" drivers from stealing wins and possibly "team racing" (wrecking other drivers to affect points). This goes
       along the lines of drivers only being allowed to run in one class of car on any given night.
    2.   Strangers are not members of the local club. Clubs use membership dues to support race payouts, points payouts, sanctioning
          etc...   To encourage locals to pay for membership, they penalize non-members to the rear.  Out of area visitors fall into the same
          non-member  trap and get sent to the rear.
    3.  Scott's favorite: " They don't know how you race."  With being an outsider, they don't know who you are. You could have never
          driven anything before and show up saying "I'm a national champion." Most times you be on the rear for the qualifier. If you are
          as good as you claim, you should earn your way forward for the main.

Do I think any of theses systems are fair? NO..... and yes..

Its unfair in the "National Points" sense of things (so is SP, Pro, Masters, YL racing as a group, but seperate points) but it is nice to see a track/ local club reward the drivers & cars that support them weekly.

I don't believe that "nation-wide" system can be established. Let's face it, legend cars are not a series that have tracks jumping to host our events. Series like NASCAR, USAC, World of Outlaws etc. can dictate to the tracks what race format needs to be followed. For legends, unless its a INEX event, the format is gonna be up to the track (or hosting club). It sucks, but that is just the way it is...
Chad Earnst #85
Central PA Legends

Offline IraceLegends77

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Re: Having to start in the rear?
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2013, 04:50:23 pm »
Chad,

Don't for a minute think that the track is doing you a favor by letting Legends run there when you have a 20+ car count. He is making money and that is what he is supposed to do. I do get we are a support class but without support classes the weekly show would last about hour. We the support class put on as good of show as anyone.  As far as clubs go, i understand why they are there and what they do but the fact remains this not a hobby stock class (or what ever your local track calls it) and we get National points and that has to be taken into consideration out of towners. I to am not a big fan of pill draw but I suck at qualifying also so maybe we could let me start on the pole every night and I would be happy..... ;D
Scott Wilkerson #77   Vision Graphix Racing


Offline VMS Motorsports

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Re: Having to start in the rear?
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2013, 09:01:01 pm »
I used to keep all of my INEX licenses from 2007-present in my truck just in case something like this were to happen.
Start me in the back of the heat race because I have no points, absolutely. No problem if that's how the track runs the show.
Try to start me in the back in the feature because I'm not local? That was not going to happen.
Fortunately, never had to fight that fight, as the tracks I've visited never tried anything like that.

Figured they moved me up to Pro last year so I tossed the old licenses.
I don't belong in Pro, but INEX thinks I do, that should mean I get my spot on the grid that I earn in the heat race/qualifying.
JIM BUCHER
VMS Motorsports
Worldwide Legends Parts Supplier
(262)255-7100
http://www.vmsmotorsports.com/

Offline Earnst85

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Re: Having to start in the rear?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2013, 08:47:21 am »
Our 20+ car count hasn't always been there. If not for some hard work, networking, and sense of community of clubs like Central PA Legends, the club wouldn't enjoy a 30+ race schedule and get the exposure we do. So yes, in our area we are making the tracks money, but until we got to point we are now, the tracks were doing us the favor of giving us races and going through the INEX sanctioning process. Because they gave us those shows, we have grown to a 30+ race schedule at 7 tracks and are averaging 20+ cars per show series.

Tracks do still do us the solid of being sanctioned.
Case in point: Keystone Legends Series didn't push Linda's Speedway & Big Diamond Speedway to become sanctioned this year. So, the tracks didn't do it. The drivers were unaware that those races didn't count towards either national points nor were they "protected" under the INEX insurance umbrella. Only at the the end of the season when a driver was relying good finishes from those tracks did he inquired why the points for those weren't submitted. The answer was the points weren't submitted because the events (tracks) weren't sanctioned. He lost out on the semi-pro national championship by 15 points. His finishes at those 2 tracks would have added 23 points. Not only that, but could you imagine if someone got hurt at one of those races. It maybe an easily overlooked perk, but some people do like the insurance provided as part of INEX membership. If someone got hurt at a track that was not sanctioned, they would only fall under track &/or personal insurance. It would be like wrecking your car in the back yard.

We are extremely lucky in our area with our relationships with the tracks. It has helped grow dirt legends racing our area to unbelievable numbers. We counted 51 different drivers last season. We are adding at least 5 rookies (that I know of) for next year and are snagging crossover attention (asphalt cars) from you (Scott) and your 3 buddies. It is other areas that struggle with getting any shows from tracks (due to low car counts &/or trying to start the class) that make it tough to tell a track "Here are the hoops you have to jump through to be sanctioned. And..... Here is how you must run your show." Some areas are happy to be on a tracks schedule, some are lucky enough to have sanctioned races. I believe the fewer "national" standards we throw at tracks, the more doors will stay open or will open up. Only where Legends are the headliner (like nationals) could we force a national standard.

Now, please help me down from my soapbox, I'm afraid of heights....
Chad Earnst #85
Central PA Legends


Offline Earnst85

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Re: Having to start in the rear?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2013, 08:54:47 am »
Scott,

Your pill draw at Susky seemed to work out. I recall starting in the back of a heat that you started up front. I was only able to pass (under) a 1/3 of your car though. Seeing your fenders and hood bouncing back and over me was one of the most puzzling things I seen in a race car. :o
Chad Earnst #85
Central PA Legends

Offline IraceLegends77

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Re: Having to start in the rear?
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2013, 11:16:22 am »
Went to Lincoln one night and drew 60 out of 60 and they said if you draw the last number you get a redraw. So I pulled 57. Long uphill battle for the night.
Scott Wilkerson #77   Vision Graphix Racing

Offline 83racedad

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Re: Having to start in the rear?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2013, 11:17:50 am »
I do believe in start where you qualify unless the race director or club personnel see something a drivers doing or not doing they are not pleased with. At that time they can make their decision to move the driver to the rear. I know of some asphalt tracks up north that have made Pro drivers that have been racing Legends for years start in the back. I do not agree with this type of policy at all. We have had race directors move us to the rear in the past and I have been OK with it. I  love watching my son come from the back to finish well or just recently WIN at a place he had never been before. And Scott I did see that car past under 1/3 of your car but that was all! Everyone on LegendsRacer have a safe & Happy Holiday. Don Hughes