Author Topic: 20w50 why?  (Read 26396 times)

Offline Tom Cole

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20w50 why?
« on: April 27, 2007, 07:57:19 pm »
The company I run makes billet connecting rods for Jr. Dragster and Racing Kart engines.  My #1 goal is "no broken rods."  In order to move toward that goal I have had to learn a lot about oil since the improper application of oil is the 2nd biggest culprit in breaking rods.  (Improper torque is #1)

Anyway, I have had the unfortunate opportunity to study oil related failure in more racing engines than most folks.  The after effect can tell you a lot about what not to do, as well as what works.  I have also been able to pick the brains of oil application engineers from both Mobil Oil and Castrol. 

95% of the rods my company makes go in engines that do not have oil pumps, or filters.  Oil gets to where it needs to be by splash.  I like to call it "oil by chance."  One thing is certain in the small engines, oil viscosity is important.  Too thick, and it won't go where it is needed.  Too thin and it will not provide enough cushion to keep metal parts from banging together.

If you go to any used car dealership, you are sure to find some motor honey or 50 wt oil somewhere in the back shed.  They put this thick oil in to take up oil clearances in older, worn engines to keep it from ticking and rattling.  The oil is providing more cushion.

Most new cars and trucks today recommend 5w30, or even 5w15 oil as compared to cars of the 80's that usually used 10w30.  The higher the number, the thicker the oil's viscosity.    All oil, unless mixed with special polymers, will get thinner as the temperature goes up.  Multi-grade oils like 10w30 or 5w30 actually have a thermostatically controlled thickener that counteracts the oil's natural thinning as temperatures increase.  The first number is more of a cold viscosity, and the second number is a running viscosity.  Although the first number does effect the second number, so a 10w30 is thicker at running temp than a 5w30.

But why would cars of today run thinner oil?  Because they are simply machined better than they used to be and are made of better materials.  Clearances between bearing surfaces are tighter and have closer tolerances.  It is hard for the oil pump to effectively push high viscosity oil into these tight areas, and since there is very little "wiggle room,"  there is not as much need for cushioning.
Think of the oil pump as a runner.  If he is running on the beach it is easy.  If he is running knee deep in the water, it is not.  And it is almost imposible to run knee deep in mud.  That is how your oil pump sees oil.  It requires greater energy to push thick oil.   And to a lesser extent,  the volume of oil in the crankcase also creates drag.  Think of it like running in ankle deep water vs waist deep water, so don't put more oil in than what is needed.

Now racing engines create some seriously different environments than what is seen in your average passenger car.  Temperatures are higher, pressures are greater, and the surface footage of bearings is greater due to the higher RPM.  So what is right for the family car is not sufficient for a racing engine.  Especially like the one we use, which is air cooled.
The point is that our engines will require a higher viscosity because of the added demand.

A quick note about synthetic oils.  The number one reason why a synthetic oil is better is because it can stand higher temperatures before breaking down (burning).   Once an oil starts to break down, it only gets worse faster.  You can put non-synthetic in your engine if you like, but I'm going with a 100% synthetic for the added protection and lower operating temperatures it yields.  As long as you have a good filter, you can leave it in your engine twice as long as conventional oils so you will likely save money.

Back to viscosity.  The engine we use is a motorcycle engine that originally used 5w30 just like every other Japanese bike of its day.  10w30 would be ok in hotter climates.  We are asking so much from these engines that we need more than that.  So most folks go to a 20w50.  To me, that is akin to running knee deep in mud when we need to be knee deep in water.  I prefer a 15w40, but you can't find that except for diesel engines.  So I mix 10w30 and 20w50  half and half.

Remember that we have wet clutches in Legends, so DO NOT add slickeners like teflon to your oil, or your clutch will not love you.

That is all my opinion only.  I honestly would like to discuss any different opinions.  If you know an "oil guru,"  send him here.  I don't mind being corrected as long as it is explained.




Offline justfreaky

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Re: 20w50 why?
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2007, 01:31:13 am »
Higher RPMs and Higher Temps play a major factor. Saw several good posts on some other nets about oil, viscocity, etc...   I'll see if I can relocate them and post.

 Steve
Better to be hated for who you are, Than to be loved for who you are not.


Offline DARK AGE 53

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Re: 20w50 why?
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2007, 09:29:06 pm »
How about Mobil One 15w50?
POW/MIA - YOU ARE LOST BUT NOT FORGOTTEN IN SOUTHEAST ASIA

Offline justfreaky

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Re: 20w50 why?
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2007, 09:58:26 am »
Mobile oil makes synthetic oils for motorcycles. According to their website, helps with cooling and works with motorcycle clutches.

Mobile 1  4T 10w-40: Recommended for high performance sport bikes which are typically liquid cooled.

Mobile 1 V-twin 20w-50: Recommended for 4 cycle V-twin engines, particularly air cooled and tend to run hotter than other types of engines.

The other one they have is for 2 cycle engines.

I think I will run one of these in my engine. Have heard lots of good stuff about the Mobile 1 oil. Besides, if it's good enough for the NASCAR guys, Should be worth consideration.


 Steve

Better to be hated for who you are, Than to be loved for who you are not.

Offline Tom Cole

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Re: 20w50 why?
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2007, 05:56:40 pm »
I just got my spec manual on the FJ engine and the oil clearance at the rod journal is .0016" to .0017"!   That is VERY tight and there is no way on earth I will ever run 20w50  in my engine again.   I think it is too thick.  10w40 is what is recommended, and a good quality full synthetic oil will do just fine when it is changed after two or three races max.


Offline T48

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Re: 20w50 why?
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2007, 08:45:11 am »
Tom, when I was talking to Jason Foxworthy at 600 Racing about our engine mishap, he asked me what type of oil we used.  When I told him it was the VR1 20w50, but that we were considering changing because of the thickness he said no, the 20w50 was what 600 Racing recommended.  My point being that I believe you and I wish there could be more defined parameters for things like this.  Newbies like us tend to believe whatever a dealer tells us, when there are actually better products and better methods out there from experienced owners like you.  That's why I'm on this discussion board every day checking and rechecking for all the pointers and information we can get.  So thanks again for this forum, you'll never know how helpful it is!!  ;)
-----Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely and in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming - WOW! WHAT A RIDE!!


Offline legends13

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Re: 20w50 why?
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2007, 03:15:36 pm »
admin,

every engine builder for legends I have talked to recommends 20w-50. When Curt Andrews rebuilt my engine, I asked him what I should do as far as oil. Whether I should stay with what I had been using or switch, and he said "engine looks great, whatever you have been doing, stick with it". I was at the time, and to this day, still, run castrol gtx conventional 20w-50, and I have never had an oil related engine failure (knock on wood).

Use 10w40 if you want to, but that is recommended for a 500 lbs motorcycle being used for everyday use, and with the engine mounted the way it was designed to be. (the exhaust facing forward, getting even cooling on all cylinders) We are running these engines harder then they were ever meant to be, pulling around 1300lbs, with fiberglass (an insulator) all around it.

Just my opinion,
Brad
Brad Salatino
Northeast Legends - Authorized USLC Dealer

Offline Tom Cole

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Re: 20w50 why?
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2007, 07:38:43 pm »
I had a quick email conversation with someone who is widley known as one of  the top 1200 engine builders and he recommended Alisyn 10w30 in the warm months and 0w20 in the cool months.  He is out of town right now, but I will ask him when he gets back if he will poke his head in here and offer his opinion.

If someone can explain to me why we need to use an oil who's viscosity is intended for pump fed oil clearances of .003" to .004" in an engine with pump fed clearances of  less than .002"  I promise, I am all ears.  As of right now, EVERYTHING I have ever learned about oil viscosity and clearances tells me that 20w50 is not the right choice.  And since I have seen an engine running 20w50 sieze a rod to the crank journal and blow out the back half of the crankcase (which is exactly what I would expect to happen), It is going to take some serious technical info to change my mind.

Disclaimer...Every engine builder should have a very good idea of the clearances in the engines that he builds, and you should therefore go with his recomendation.



Offline T48

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Re: 20w50 why?
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2007, 08:32:49 am »
About the engine being designed for everyday motorcycle use, I'll add what Foxworthy at 600 Racing said about that.  The 1200 was designed to run around 18000 rpm when installed on a motorcycle.  Granted the legends run usually no more than 10500, but is heavier so they figure that evens things out.   Take whatever that theory will do for you and apply it to their reasoning on oil viscosity and temperature - if anything.  ;)
-----Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely and in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming - WOW! WHAT A RIDE!!

Offline hundo24

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Re: 20w50 why?
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2007, 09:30:40 am »
About the engine being designed for everyday motorcycle use, I'll add what Foxworthy at 600 Racing said about that.  The 1200 was designed to run around 18000 rpm when installed on a motorcycle.  Granted the legends run usually no more than 10500, but is heavier so they figure that evens things out.   Take whatever that theory will do for you and apply it to their reasoning on oil viscosity and temperature - if anything.  ;)


I may be wrong, but I really do not think that 1200 motor was designed for 18,000 rpm. Even todays hight tech motorcycle enging inly rev to 15-16k.  My 05GSXR1000 is 13,5 or 14k


Offline T48

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Re: 20w50 why?
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2007, 12:04:53 pm »
Just the messenger on that one, hundo24.   I haven't a clue what the fact is, only what 600 Racing said.  And I didn't quite understand why that would have anything significant to do with their recommendation of 20w50 oil, but I'm very much a newbie.  Thought it might be relavent to some of you more experienced people.  ;)
-----Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely and in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming - WOW! WHAT A RIDE!!

Offline JGRacing

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Re: 20w50 why?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2007, 12:20:50 pm »
I was looking at the website for the Joe Gibbs oil and the XP1 oil they specify for legends cars is equal to a 5w20.  That is a big difference from the 20w50 recommended by 600 Racing.  Has anyone tried the Joe Gibbs oils? 

CWall5

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Re: 20w50 why?
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2008, 12:25:22 am »
I agree... i know there not meant to turn more than a GSXR.. i think mine red lined at 14k  18k sounds like a 2stoke


I may be wrong, but I really do not think that 1200 motor was designed for 18,000 rpm. Even todays hight tech motorcycle enging inly rev to 15-16k.  My 05GSXR1000 is 13,5 or 14k
[/quote]

Offline thunder938

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Re: 20w50 why?
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2008, 09:04:29 am »
The oil in a new motorcycle does not run as hot as these cars do.  The motors were set up to pull 1300 lbs with very little air flow (cooling) at 10,500 rpms for 10, 20, 30 minutes.  Most of the guys I race with run 20 / 50 gtx and have no problem.  I was told by my builder to run 25 / 50 penzoil racing which I do and have no problem.  So, talk to other drivers in the area and see, most are running 20 or 25 /50 and changing it after 2 races.
Dave

Offline RickyBobby

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Re: 20w50 why?
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2008, 10:09:34 am »
I was running 20w 50 Royal purple oil until 2 weeks ago.  I had lost all oil pressure in our feature race.  I pulled off let the motor cool and I had oil pressure again.  This is usually a sign of the main bearings going.  I pulled the motor (1200 open) and took it to my builder.  He said the 20w50 was way too think and was causing the oil pump to bog down.  When we pulled the engine apart he said the 20w50 royal purple was giving me all sorts of protection as the oil was still dripping 3 days later.  He said the issue with the 20w50 is cold starts it takes too long to get it moving and the motor was not designed for oil that thick.  He did mention the original clearences of the motor as well.  He also asked me "when does your motor pull the hardest?"  he siad "when you loose oil pressure and it is about to let go".  With changing the oil every 2 races he said you ensure you always have good fresh oil in the motor.  So we are now running 10W40 on his recommendation.  The motor runs just as cool and runs very well.  Yamaha engineers designed the motor and said to use 10w30 or 10w40 whatever.  They have engineer rings for a reason.  I don't think 600 can say that.  Not that 600 does not know their stuff when it comes to these cars, I just think the engine guys and more so Yamaha know these motors better.

I did also notice this weekend that the motor cools down much faster as the oil is not as thick. 

 

anything