I have some questions...

[PHA281]

My Mach 1 has sold, so I have a few questions before I make a final decision between a Legends car and a Dwarf car. I can't seem to find answers to them even the "Google Machine" has failed me. Maybe someone can help. (I'll also be posting this exact thread on a forum for both cars and comparing answers before I decide) Currently favoring the Dwarf car for the simple reason of the "Pick up" body looks bad ass and will work nicely with my paint scheme idea.

Before you jump to conclusions I'm not "trolling" as some would call it. I'm looking for information that will help me decide between the two.

I'm looking into purchasing a used Legends or Dwarf car for the purpose of Hill climbing it and using it on track days.. One of the things I would like to do, is forced induction (Turbo) I'm not concerned with the standard rules for racing either vehicle as Hill Climbing kinda has it's own classing. (There's a guy running a vehicle powered by multiple snow mobile engines!)

Thanks in advance if you have no intentions on actually answering one or all of the questions, don't post stupid comments please. I know there are "purists" for each car, and I'm violating everything you stand for but it's what I wish to do in my quest for speed..

Now on-to my questions..

Is there a decent amount of room in/around the engine compartment for a Turbo and the intake needed to run it? Room in front of the radiator for a small inter-cooler? I realize fab work will be needed, but looking to keep it to a minimum when it comes to modifying the chassis.

How sturdy is the chassis? There are portions of our courses where air will be achieved fairly easily, and frequently. Can the front of these things take a beating so I'm not out of commission after taking The Jump @ Weatherly? Could it handle a small off pavement experience and not end my weekend? I don't have an issue with reinforcing anything but I want to make sure it can take the abuse of hill climbs (I know of both a legends and a dwarf, but both are stock as far as I know and really won't get to the speeds I'm hoping too!)

I'm 5'8" and a stocky 284#. I don't mind a tight squeeze but I'd like to stick a full containment Kirkey seat in there.. possible?

Parts seem fairly simple to find for both, are their upgrades (beyond the rules) available? Or is it pretty much if you want it, you have to build/make it work?

And of course... crashing it. How well do these things hold up in VIOLENT crashes? And by violent, I mean imagine the worst you've seen and throw trees, boulders and embankments (both uphill and down) into the mix. It will never be "Wheel to Wheel" raced so only thing I'm hitting is the above listed and maybe a barrier or two..
 I understand there will be injuries, but how well do the driver compartments hold up?? I've ran a few hills, and it's only a matter of time before I tussle with a maple or two.. (hence my "want for a full containment seat. False hopes of safety maybe?)

And last but not least, sell me your "style" of car.. what do you think makes it better then the other? (Dwarf vs Legends vs Legends vs Dwarf)


Hopefully I can get some help! Cause I can't make up my mind and your answers will help me!

[VMS Motorsports]

First, the best thing for you would be to remove  paragraph "4".  Nobody is going to help you when you come off as combative right off the bat.

To answer your questions:

Legends are air cooled, so there is no radiator. I know of people that have turbos and/or nitrous on the air cooled 1200's (along with some wicked VW beetles). If you put a liquid cooled motor in, only you will know if there is room.

I have found Legends chassis to be rather sturdy, and I have 4 years of some hard wrecks with the same chassis to prove it.

Yes, a full containment seat is possible, many people run them.

Theres not much to the cars, so not sure on what you mean by "upgrades" available.

Violent crashes...been there, done that. From 80-0 in 10 feet, and  also flipping and snaprolling down the backstretch, hitting and breaking a retaining fence post, coming to a complete stop 15 feet off the ground, and dropping straight down onto my roof. Always walked away. Have video with people saying "oh my god, he's dead". I'm still using the same cage, it's well over ten years old and has never let me down.

I don't know the first thing about dwarf cars, so I can't compare

[justfreaky]

Hi Adam,

As Jim stated, Legends Cars are air cooled Yamaha FJ and XJ 1200 -1250 engines. Most Dwarf Cars now are running water cooled engines (GSXRs, CBRs and R1s are some of the more common engines). A lot of Dwarf Cars are now running the fuel injected engines also. At one time on the site, we had a guy that was going to put a turbo charged Hyabusa 1300 in a Legends Car. His project never came about as his engine had some stress cracks in it and he had some family matters that took up a lot of his time.

The Legends Car chassis is actually copied from the early Dwarf Car Company chassis. Dwarf Cars usually have more adjustability to their rear suspension. Early Dwarf Car chassis used upper a-arm front suspensions. My sedan chassis uses a-arms. The a-arms may be a little tougher than the current Legends Car or Dwarf Car set ups. As you are not limited to the INEX rule structure, necessary modifications could be made to the chassis to beef it up a little. Jim has had some pretty wild crashes over the years. As his testimony points out, these chassis are fairly tough in their design.

Full containment seats are  possible in either type of car. As pointed out in one of the posts on DCR, a roof hatch may be an option for you to make it easier to get in and out of the car.

Crashes,  catching air, etc... Remember, the Legends Car uses a fiberglass body; Where as the Dwarf Car has a tin or aluminum body. The Dwarf Car body may be more forgiving as far as abuse.

If you are pretty much of the mindset to run the pick up body style, then the truck Dwarf Car chassis may be the better option for you. A lot less work than to modify an existing chassis for the truck body. I really like the looks of the coupe body styles. My other car is a coupe. I really like the looks of the Legends Cars because they have fenders and runningboards.

I hope that gives you some food for thought.

Steve

[PHA281]

Thanks to both of you!

  VMS (dunno your real name), I'm not being combative, just pointing out that if someone isn't going to have something constructive to say that applies to what I'm looking for.. Please don't bother replying. I'm not very good at beating around the bush with things, I'd rather run right through it and get to my point. It's a fault I admit I have.. I'm not very good at "customer service". I guess that's why I dig ditches... 

 Thanks for your input on the Legends car end of my questions. I posted this exact thread on DCR as well to get there side of the post. If you have any of those videos online (YouTube) do have a channel/link? I'd like to view them...

 Also thanks to Steve for the background info.. I like the look of the  pick up body style Dwarf, the wife likes the 34 Ford Sedan Legend.. Granted that's not the deal breaker on deciding but it helps!
 

[justfreaky]

Hi Adam,

Jim is VMSmotorsports real name. My oppinion, all around good guy to deal with as well as banter theory. There are links to his youtube videos on here as well as on his site. He took a very nasty tumble awhile back in his car. Except for bumps and bruises, he was relatively in good shape. Gimpster may have another outlook on things... As he was injured in a crash a few years back and is still recovering. Accidents are always going to be a very real part of any form of racing.

On the Legends vs Dwarf Car debate, I may be your best informational source. My cars are both Dwarf Cars; But I have spent the last 4 years here on the LegendsRacer site learning all that I can about the Legends Cars. I have a sedan chassis that someone had started building, and a coupe chassis that I have designed and been building from scratch. Heads up.... Buying and modifying an existing car is by far cheaper than trying to research and completely build a car.

On the body styles... I am still partial to the looks of the coupes. The '34 sedan or coupe was always a nice looking car (read: lots of eye appeal). The Dwarf trucks just don't seem representitive of the trucks from the period, compared to the full size (original) versions of the trucks. Just my opinion. Size-wise (interior dimensions) coupes, sedans, or trucks, are pretty much the same as far as interior room. Some think that the coupes are a bit more responsive compared to the sedans. As they are all the same as far as wheelbase and track width, I can't say at this point. Just input that I have received over the years. I don't have any input from anyone using the truck styles.

Steve

PS, you can always email me if you want to bat around some theory or trade info. justfreaky@3riversdbs.net is my email address.

[PHA281]

One thing, I would like to know is..

How hard would it be, to get a GSXR, ZX14 or any other type of similar motor into a 34 Sedan Legends Car??? That's the one the wife likes.. and my paint scheme would work well on it. (Looks aren't everything, but it's fun when the kids go nuts over them when in the pits)

For reference, here's one of the car's I'd be competing against.. If I do go out of the INEX class (my intention).

This is the George Bowland BBR Shark.. a BAD ASS vehicle when it comes to hill climbing...

[justfreaky]

EASY!!!

Bowlands' car looks similar to the formula 5000 or mini indy series cars. What kind of engine is he using for power?

Note it's very low stance. Lack of bodywork makes it a bit less areo than it could be.

Steve

[igotmylegend]

I think its a snowmobile engine ,  that thing seems like it tops out. I think if you put some gears behind you, you'll be just fine.

[VMS Motorsports]

I think its a snowmobile engine ,  that thing seems like it tops out. I think if you put some gears behind you, you'll be just fine.

It did sound like one of those asphalt mini-sprints, think you're probably right

[PHA281]

It is snow mobile engines... He holds records in numerous series for hill climbs.. Knocks down the FTD consistently

[justfreaky]

I spied one of these mini indy type cars on the Montana craigslist board yesterday. Not quite the fancy wings on it, but could likely be had at a reasonable price.
I had the opporunity to see a formula 5000 car a couple years ago at a car show; Nice comfy fit, but hard for me to get out of. lol!
Steve

[JGRacing]

I wonder if a roadster chassis might be better for hill climbs.  Chassis might be a little stiffer and would provide more room for whatever motor you decide on.  They are also designed for higher speed crashes.  Just a thought. 

[PHA281]

I wonder if a roadster chassis might be better for hill climbs.  Chassis might be a little stiffer and would provide more room for whatever motor you decide on.  They are also designed for higher speed crashes.  Just a thought. 

Yea, but I like the smaller cars.. We have one of those running the hills as well..

[justfreaky]

Adam,

Found the link for you in case you are interested.
http://montana.craigslist.org/bar/2333654370.html

Steve

[PHA281]

With questions answered both here and DCR, a few PM's both here and there and additional peeking around...

I still like the  idea of a Pick up style body, but... I feel the cleaner lines and the material of the Legends car would benefit me on a hill and feel that I would be better off aero wise with one. I would like to go with the 34 Ford Sedan so, we'll go from there...

Engine wise I will for sure, be looking to go as fast as possible... so I guess I'll be researching that next...